Recorded on: Jul 22, 2025
Description
Psychopathy is often portrayed as a rare and distant phenomenon – something confined to movie villains or prison cells. Yet when psychopathy is combined with narcissism and Machiavellianism to form what psychologists call the Dark Triad, its impact becomes far more immediate. Individuals with these traits can wield disproportionate influence over our culture, institutions, and daily lives. What goes on inside their minds, and how do they shape the world around us?
In this episode, Nate is joined by Dr. Reid Meloy and Dr. Nancy McWilliams to explore the inner workings of the Dark Triad personality traits and their manifestation in modern culture. Together, they trace the evolutionary roots of these traits, examine the predatory ways Dark Triad individuals engage with others, and consider the profound implications for leadership, power, and governance. Ultimately, they emphasize the importance of truth and community when navigating the complexities of human behavior.
Why are Dark Triad individuals more likely to occupy positions of power? How do current cultural norms and expectations actually incentivize Dark Triad tendencies, including in governance? Most importantly, how can reorienting towards collective communication and cooperation help create guardrails against these ‘darker angels’ of humanity?
About Nancy McWilliams
Dr. Nancy McWilliams, Ph.D., ABPP, is a distinguished psychoanalyst, author, and educator internationally recognized for her contributions to the field of personality theory and psychodynamic diagnosis. She is Professor Emerita at the Graduate School of Applied and Professional Psychology at Rutgers. Her published work addresses the clinical and cultural relevance of language in diagnosing complex personality patterns, including narcissistic and psychopathic structures, and she has written on the psychology of altruism, moral development, and the enduring role of psychoanalytic thinking in understanding human nature.
About Reid Meloy
Dr. J. Reid Meloy, Ph.D., ABPP, is a board-certified forensic psychologist, former clinical professor of psychiatry at the University of California, San Diego School of Medicine, and a widely cited authority on psychopathy, personality disorders, and targeted violence. Dr. Meloy has served as a consultant, researcher, and trainer for numerous law enforcement, intelligence, and corporate security agencies around the world. He is the author or editor of more than 200 peer-reviewed publications and several seminal books, including The Psychopathic Mind, International Handbook of Threat Assessment, and Violent Attachments.
Show Notes & Links to Learn More
00:00 –
03:44 – Nate Hagens: Economics for the future – Beyond the superorganism
03:54 – Dark Triad (Psychopathy, Machiavellianism, Narcissism) & Dark Tetrad (Sadism), More info
04:39 – Psychopathy in positions of power
06:19 – Nate’s net energy PhD thesis, Energy Economics in Ecosystems, Energy flow in ecosystems, Work (physics)
07:04 – Nancy’s critique of current diagnostics, Nancy on the Psychodynamic Diagnostic Process
07:25 – Dan P. MacAdams – Narrative Identity.
07:37 – The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, its description of Antisocial Personality Disorder & original description
07:58 – Lee Robins, on prison
08:34 – Snakes in Suits by of Paul Babiak and Robert D. Hare, The Mask of Sanity by Hervey M. Cleckley
09:24 – Hare Psychopathy Checklist
11:24 – Self-esteem, Self-Esteem Theory
12:14 – Niccolò Machiavelli and Machiavellianism in politics, The Leopard (novel and film)
15:01 – Most serial murders are psychopathic and sadistic
15:34 – Fred and Rose West
16:27 – Psychopathy and Narcissism asymmetrical relationship
17:14 – Relationship between social connectedness and depression, Social Baseline Theory
17:54 – Psychopathy and Dominance
19:09 – Predator-Prey dynamic, Reid’s publication on psychopathy and evolution
20:04 – Homo sapiens have been a species for 300,000 years
20:34 – Inuit attitude toward psychopathic behavior
20:39 – “The Berserker”
22:14 – Genetic predisposition to psychopathy
22:39 – Attachment Theory
23:39 – Too much empathy
24:24 – Psychopathy and the family
24:54 – Absence of attachment lays foundation for lack of empathy
25:24 – Sociopathy term rejected American Psychiatric Association
26:54 – Genetics typically have higher influence on psychopathy than environment
28:24 – Dark personality traits are more common in men
29:24 – Sexual Sadism Disorder
30:34 – Jean Twenge
31:24 – Dark Triad and social media
34:04 – Psychopathy and pathological lying
36:04 – Healthy narcissism
36:54 – Affective vs. Predatory Violence
38:19 – Evolutionary traits: affective and predatory
40:04 – Adverse Childhood Experiences
41:44 – Psychopathy typically starts in childhood
42:09 – Breaking Bad, Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle
44:09 – Bernie Madoff
45:14 – Extreme psychopathy is untreatable
45:49 – Substance Use Disorder, Alcohol Anonymous
50:04 – Psychopaths have a disproportionate impact on the criminal justice system
50:59 – Psychopaths are skilled at targeting vulnerable victims
52:14 – Multi-level selection (more info), E.O. Wilson, David Sloan Wilson (TGS Podcast)
53:24 – Game Theory
54:04 – 1% of population is psychopathic
58:24 – Cults are typically led by psychopaths, Jim Jones
58:39 – Charisma and psychopathy
1:01:09 – Foundations of Threat Assessment and Management by Andre Simons and J. Reid Meloy
1:03:09 – Zak Stein, (TGS Episodes 1 + 2)
1:03:19 – Daniel Schmachtenberger (TGS Episodes)
1:03:34 – Corporate personhood
1:04:54 – History of the United States
1:10:04 – Light Triad
1:13:44 – Democracy, The U.S. Constitution
1:14:09 – Reagan Era
1:14:44 – The U.S. Legal System
1:15:29 – The Truth Drive
1:16:24 – Meloy and Meloy on a sense of “chill”
1:19:29 – Ted Turner Reserves – Vermejo
Comments
We changed commenting systems on September 10, 2026 as part of a site-wide functionality and security upgrade. Your past comments have not disappeared, and you can still log in with your old Disqus account credentials if you wish. Contact us with any questions.
The Dark Triad and other personality disorders are seen as individual sickness but can a society as a whole (or large part) also exhibit these pathologies? What kind of society would allow these kinds of individuals to rule for and over them? What kind of society would celebrate the life – and death – of a man dedicated to using the violence of language to foster racism, misogyny, political and social discord, gun violence and extremist hate, especially toward people who do not conform to their norms of human sexuality?
"Homo sapiens have been a species for 300,000 years"
Humans like us (i.e. that think like us) have only been around about 70,000 years. That's about the time we exploded and started dominating the planet – leaving Africa, ending other Homo species, crossed open oceans to Australia, moved to the Arctic and crossed into the Americas, etc., ending the megafauna in all those places. (Harari, et al.; Hallett et al.)