As I settle into and continue to explore the perspective that modernity is destined to fail, was never a long-term-viable idea, and therefore represents a giant blunder, I keep running into thoughtful writings about what exactly went wrong, at its foundations.
A recurrent culprit—and I tend to agree—involves human supremacism (anthropocentrism), connected to a perceived separateness from nature. This separateness relates to a dualism that began with agriculture, eventually finding full expression during the Enlightenment. Its Enlightenment framing, chiefly associated with Descartes, drives a wedge between mind and matter—as different “substances,” for instance. Thus, while not my main interest, I keep getting routed back to the question of “mind,” as it continues to be a sticking point in dismantling the dualism that is generally agreed to get in the way of appropriate ways of living on this planet.
So, this post is about mind and consciousness, offering my reactions. Now, I should be clear that it doesn’t really matter if we arrive at the Correct Truth on this issue, to the extent that the recommendations emerging from whatever framework result in better alignment to the living world. Any prescription that advocates humility, right-relationship, reciprocity, being part of a whole—fantastic! I may have suspicions and disagreements about the underlying metaphysics, but who cares, in the end? Surely multiple paths can lead to similar ends. Thus, I don’t want to die on that hill, or subvert migration to a better way of living in a crossed-arm philosophical sulk. Nor do I wish to see efforts that claim theirs is the only way, rooted in Truth. Who are we to demand knowing the ultimate truth, anyway? Why should we—or any creature of evolution—expect to? Humility, remember?
Indigenous cultures adopted a diverse universe of stories upon which their well-integrated practices rested, and that’s all for the good—even if the stories are not True in a modern sense. What matters is the practices and attitudes the stories motivate. I suspect that we can likewise tolerate a diversity of metaphysical underpinnings, to the extent that they allow compatibility with the community of life.
That said, I will now address what I see as an unfortunate tendency in the drive to abolish dualism. Maybe it can lead to similar, good outcomes, but I worry that it preserves a tinge of supremacy, while failing to destroy the chief horcrux of dualism. Be prepared to lose your mind, as I have done.
Beware the Shortcuts!
Let me start on what I hope is common ground. While mental representations are always shortcuts in some sense, I assume that most people motivated to read my material value at least some degree of critical thinking. Thus, I assume that most are attracted to explanations of rainbows, seasons, tides, biodiversity, etc. by routes other than “that’s how The Creator made it—end of story.” It’s totally fine to admit that we don’t or can’t know something, but let us please limit the impulse to “explain” complexity using facile shortcuts. Likewise, I suspect that even phenomena that are too messy to understand to satisfaction—like maybe charge separation in turbulent clouds to make lightning—are nonetheless assumed to have a basis in physics without supernatural intervention. Apologies if I am assuming wrongly: if so, the rest may seem like gibberish.
Why on Earth would our physiology be different? Complex? Absolutely. Forever beyond our means to fully explain? You bet. Is every sensation we experience exempt from having a material basis? I strongly suspect not. Are any sensations exempt? I’m not sure why they would be, without nurturing a dualistic worldview.
Obvious, but Wrong
For most of human history it was blindingly obvious that the sun, moon, and stars went around the earth. All one had to do was pay attention to confirm the illusion. Turns out it’s more complicated. It was likewise self-evident that a rock was completely solid, rather than mostly empty space, whose mass exists in the form of nuclei occupying 0.0000000000001% of the volume. While it sure looks and feels solid to our blunt senses, the truth is more complicated. Meanwhile, as Galileo, Newton, and generations of ever-more advanced scientists knew in their bones, space and time were distinct properties—never mixing, which is prima facie absurd. But yes, the actual universe is more complicated: much more than meets the eye. Now, ask virtually any human who has ever lived whether the phenomenon they associate with mind/consciousness is “nothing but” mechanics of neurons (matter interactions) and most will say that it’s obviously more than just matter and physics. After all, they feel it. What could be more convincing? But maybe what we feel is also complicated.
That we experience sensations produced in our bodies, like the feeling of consciousness, is not surprising. Can you think of any other sensations you have access to feel? Hunger, thirst, color vision? Everything we experience feels like something, to a physiological being interfaced to the world via an enormous complexity of stimuli and sensory inputs. It would be rather bizarre if we didn’t feel things, including a sense of self. After all, we have to maneuver our bodies through this world, which would be rather hard without a concept of self. Feelings are adaptive sensations that are basically inevitable products of evolution. (Note that language is infused with duality: “our bodies” suggests material bodies belong to some non-corporeal entity, making communication on this subject tricky indeed.)
The “blindingly obvious” reality of mind/consciousness (I’ll often use just “mind” as shorthand for both) blinds us to the possibility that it’s yet another convincing sensation contrived by our physiology that has adaptive benefit. Isn’t it practically inevitable that a creature capable of collecting sensory inputs, building mental models of the world to organize myriad stimuli, and navigating within it will develop some functional awareness of those mental models and of being a presence in the world? How, exactly, would we propose preventing awareness of our capacity to think or occupy space? And to what end?
But I’m getting ahead of myself. The purpose of this post is to ask you to genuinely confront, even if seeming outlandish at first blush, the notion that mind is yet another clever neural construct: a handle by which we have useful awareness of our cognitive capabilities and of the fact that we are entities on the planet.
Dualism
The speculative notion that we have a matter-transcendent mind has derailed the human project for a very long time. The crisis came to a head in the Enlightenment with that notorious wanker called Descartes. Apologies for the slanderous language, but really, I have yet to read anything likable about the guy, or his unhinged musings (Cogito, ergo loco). Taking the mind to be an unquestionable transcendent reality led to a formalized dualism that helped justify and amplify the millennia-old practice of human supremacy over all other nature: mind being a divinely-bestowed substance unique to humans that had no connection to insultingly-inert material substance, which of course had no difficulty making up all the animals and plants and rocks. Nothing good can come of that artificial schism.
As science progressed, it became ever-more clear that at least some aspects of mind had a neurological basis. This uncomfortable association paved the way for a materialist monism (matter is the whole, single story). But even today, strict monism is frequently rejected on the basis that it hasn’t or ostensibly can’t—even in theory—satisfactorily explain mind. Infuriatingly, it is often claimed that monism implicitly propagates dualism by its failure to account for mind and consciousness.
A brief rant: A) dualism is only kept alive by non-monists who posit that mind is inexplicable on a material basis; and B) a completely satisfactory account of the illusion of mind from first principles is likely forever beyond our capabilities, which is not the fault of the actual universe as much as the fault of our manifestly limited brains. Let’s not escape to unsupported conclusions just because something is hard to figure out.
So, we’re still getting tripped up on the very thing that led Descartes to his infamous dualism: mind as a non-material substance. I agree that we would do well to reject dualism. But as long as we can’t let go of “mind” as a transcendent phenomenon not possibly emergent from material interactions, well, we’re utterly stuck—like a classic monkey trap. Some react by doubling down and making mind “primary” over matter (idealism; panpsychism; matter is a product of mind; even en electron has some quantum of consciousness). In my view, that just drives the wheels deeper into the mud. For me, the resolution is like the spoon-bending kid’s advice to Neo in The Matrix: There is no Mind. Literally mind-blowing!
Reductionism
Idealists (opposite materialists) frequently characterize the materialist stance as being reductionist, robbing the mind of its obvious irreducible glory. What? To me, it is quite the reverse. I can understand, given a justifiable sense of awe over the amazingness of mind, that any attempt to “reduce” something so powerful and mysterious to neurons and inert electrons seems rather deflating and, well, mindless. A material explanation then comes off as insulting and “obviously” wrong. Thus the flame of dualism is kept kindled: yay?
“Reducing” humans to mere machines might seem insulting, but chiefly because the technological creations we call machines are pathetic: deliberately deprived of emergent awesomeness by both being piecemeal composites of basic ideas that emerge from limited human brains rather than a richly-storied ecological context, and because we intentionally stamp out unforeseen interactions that we call “bugs.” If associating a human (or an amoeba) with a machine is insulting, it’s only because our creations are insults to the intricate emergent complexity of stupendously-more fantastic machines such as the amoeba, crafted to near-perfection over deep time. Just because an amoeba is many orders-of-magnitude more subtle and sophisticated than our technological machines does not justify a categorical distinction as to the fundamental material basis. Too hasty.
While it is certainly correct that we do not possess an end-to-end explanation for mind/consciousness, asserting that a purely material basis is not possible—not even to be entertained—seems reflexive and unjustified. The idea is rejected out of hand for no reason I have ever judged to be compelling—certainly not resting on anything we would call evidence, but rather affinity, preference, impatience, and arrogance—as if we get to decide how the universe works. Mind and consciousness are effectively declared to be off limits to explanations involving mere matter interaction. Even attempting such reasoning is derided as a lack of fundamental appreciation for how the universe really works—or at least how we wish it to work, in our minds.
In fact, the primary argument for a real and separate phenomenon of mind appears to come down to the word: qualia. Translation: “I feel it!” Meanwhile, the materialists are unjustly held hostage: “Until a complete end-to-end material explanation is provided, we will not credit its possibility. Oh—and it’s pointless and misguided to even try.”
Materialist Expansivism
The “reductionist” label usually carries a derogatory connotation: akin to small-minded; narrow; unimaginative; pedantic; misguided; simpleton. To me, this flavoring reveals an enormous disconnect.
I find the notion that the experience of mind/consciousness ultimately rests on physics to be astoundingly unfathomable. It’s the opposite of small-minded: the full complexity is far bigger than our brains can manage (dwell on that for a moment). It’s the opposite of narrow, surpassing the scope of even the broadest thinkers. It’s the opposite of unimaginative, in that we do not possess sufficient imagination to flesh out the rich tapestry of interactions that make it all possible. You get the picture. The “reductionist” label grossly conceals an expansive reality behind a pejorative word. How’s this for an example of reductionism: try sweeping an enormous pile of unfathomable complexity under a rug labeled “mind” and pretend it’s a phenomenon unto its own—asserting that it is its own category apart from physics and neurochemistry. That’s some impressive reduction of an enormous tangle!
Opposite of stifling the wonder of our “mind” experience, the materialist perspective is, to me, inexpressibly awesome. It’s mind-blowing! It is unimaginably rich, deep, and inscrutable—which is not grounds for disqualifying something from having a material origin. It doesn’t remotely fit in our heads, unlike a facile label of mind, or consciousness, or a god can. Just as the real story of lightning is far more intricate, mysterious, and overwhelming than the cop-out of saying “God makes it happen,” the emergent complexity of mind from basic building blocks is far more wondrous than impatiently giving up and assuming it must just be its own thing. I am reminded of a scene from Galaxy Quest: “What I’d give to see what you’re seeing…you’re deep in the underbelly of the Omega-13.” The actual, complicated, incomprehensible universe is stunning to behold—always surpassing our limited imaginations.
A Quandary
Here’s a puzzle: if mind is not neurological in origin, what the hell are all those neurons busy doing? Why even bother? This gets back to the core problem of dualism: why carry both mind and matter as separate, non-interacting substances? Is the advanced degree of mind in humans somehow disconnected from the advanced architecture of our brains? Mere coincidence? Why is it that biophysical processes that interfere with neural function severely alter mental states or render us unconscious—like hallucinogens, anesthesia, or brain trauma? If the brain can take away consciousness, isn’t it the thing that creates it?
Is mind somehow separate from neurophysics, operating independently? Isn’t it far more likely that among the amazing tricks the brain can pull off after hundreds of millions of years of honing is a sense of consciousness and mind? Is the fact that we’re not clever enough to have connected all the dots somehow disqualifying to such a reality? Who are we to make demands? Is it arrogance? Entitlement?
What does insistence on mind as a non-material phenomenon really come down to? Obviously we have no firm evidence that the sensation of mind is not neurological in origin. Is it just unpalatable to believe that we might be lumps of matter in splendid arrangement? Is the gap too frighteningly big? Does the convenient attribution to “mind” act as a security blanket, in the same way that a deity might act for many?
The tables might be turned on me: lacking conclusive and complete evidence on either side, my preference for materialism might be equally attributed to wishfulness. What do I have against mind as a real, qualitatively separate phenomenon? I guess it comes back to aversion to dualism. Without dualism, the question becomes whether mind or matter is “primary” (a term that itself keeps dualism lit, implying a secondary). I find it far more plausible that mind can emerge from complex interactions of matter (as so many amazing phenomena do; and: what would prevent it?) than that matter somehow derives from mind. Physics, astrophysics, cosmology, geology, climate, erosion, thunderstorms all get by without life on Earth and without the rare, localized, transitory sensations of mind that naturally flowed out of evolved brains. It would seem an enormous (impossible?) undertaking to demonstrate that mind cannot arise from matter interactions. What could possibly stand up to scrutiny?
Illusionism
I recently read a series of papers (Frankish, Dennett) on the concept of the illusion of consciousness. I highly recommend these and associated papers. In his delightfully well-written piece, Dennett compares our mental construct of consciousness to stage magic—the art of crafting convincing illusions. Another useful analog is the trash can icon on a computer’s desktop. Dragging a file to the trash can is a symbolic representation of making the file disappear (which itself does not happen upon the action of deletion: the associated space in memory is just de-linked in the look-up table and is thereafter available to be overwritten at some later time). We know the computer does not have a literal trash can inside, but the handle is useful. Our perception of mind and consciousness may operate similarly: a handy construct that helps us conceive of something that in truth is far too complicated to piece together. Just call it mind and move on. It’s yet another mental model shortcut that is exactly what brains are built to do—thus true to form, without needing to be true to reality.
So, let your mind go. It might be the biggest leap imaginable: bigger than letting go of belief in a deity. After all, we’re intimately acquainted with our internal trash can—I mean mind. We’ve known it all our lives. We feel it! It’s familiar.
What’s left on the other side is far from nihilism—itself a symptom of the failure-of and overdependence-on mental models: a lack of imagined alternatives. Everything awaits on the other side: nothing real goes away when your mental model collapses. Reality is bigger and more expansive than you dreamed. It’s beautiful, mysterious, unfathomable. Maybe it’s scary to confront the unknown, but we can also delight in beholding the frontier. It’s awe inspiring. Your sensation of mind will never go away. It’s just a matter of saying “Hmm. That’s a pretty neat trick,” and appreciating the spectacular nature of the fact that it all works, somehow. Life is incredible!
Why Even Go There?
Given my perspective that modernity is a temporary phase poised to fail, why do I even bother poking into matters of mind? Well, as I mentioned in the introduction, it keeps coming up as I explore what others say about the core problem of modernity (dualism). It’s a perennial sticking point. It’s part of the monkey trap. It’s also connected to cognitive limitations in general.
In the last post, I elaborated a recent theme of mine: that brains are shortcut machines lacking the capacity for complete ecological context, so that modernity amounts to an unwieldy tangle of brain-farts. Clearly human brains were a huge factor in creating the unsustainable predicament we find ourselves in. It is therefore valuable to appreciate our brains—both in terms of limitations, and in terms of convincing illusions they create for adaptive benefit.
Here’s why it is important to me personally to carry a theory of mind that anchors it in the same framework as everything else we observe:
- We are part of the universe; made of the same stuff; connected; integral.
- Humility flows from this interconnectedness and kinship with all life and matter.
- Positing a separate mind is a shortcut that robs the universe and life of its customary splendid complexity.
- Recognition that even mind/consciousness is a mental model helps us appreciate that this is just what brains do, and that mental models are not required to be correct to be adaptive.
- Mind has supremacist leanings: wrenching the phenomenon out of the hands of the material universe so that we are the masters is a dangerous, self-flattering conceit.
Rather than being offended that I might be “reduced” to matter and its interactions, I can revel in it. I can humbly embrace my kinship to the whole universe, and my shared heritage with all life. From this basis in humility, I am prepared to give up on mastering all knowledge, and embrace any number of figurative stories and/or animistic framings that serve to ground us in right-relationship with the utterly amazing community of life. I worry that clinging to the special construct of mind keeps us at arms’ length from being part of nature—made of the same atoms and belonging to the world.






Comments
Jim,
Please refrain from personal accusations. They sabotage good discussion.
Stick to the issue and we all will benefit.
– the Moderator
This accusation also showed up in the Do the Math comments, to which I responded:
I'm sorry this comes off as trickery. Rutherford's gold foil experiments truly shocked the world (neutrons sailed through, very seldom hitting any geometric obstruction). Prior to the gold foil experiments, it was just assumed that the mass of a solid was volume-filling, which was entirely untrue. I would not claim liquids to be a different story (your invention), but use solids for their perceived impenetrability. The point that was emphasized is that it's complicated: more than meets the eye—which as far as I can tell you do not dispute. I'll skip over the accusations, which passed through without striking anything.
During Rutherford's time and in our time the term SOLID is typically understood in relation to things like LIQUID and GAS. A solid thing will keep its shape in the presence of external forces in ways that liquids and gases do not.
Rutherford's experiment disproved the hypothesis that things are solid because MASS fills the volume of a solid. But of course even at that time this was an unlikely explanation because of what was known about water.
Solid ice is less dense than liquid water. (liquid water is densest at 4 degrees C)
And just because MASS does not fill the volume of an atom does not mean that the volume is just empty space. It is filled with fast moving charged particles and fields and forces. Shooting a charged particle like a proton or an electron produces very different outcomes than shooting an uncharged neutron.
What is completely untrue is the assertion that Rutherford's experiment proved SOLIDS are mostly empty space, it showed that solids are held together by FORCES and FEILDS not MASS alone.
I agree with you that our mind, consciousness, feelings of self, identity, memory, and the qualia Red, are phenomena of emergent complexity out of our body and brain. (As I do with a great deal of your other work.)
Where I disagree with you is that anthropocentrism has anything to do with Descartian Dualism. The problem arises from the Judeo-Christian concept of Soul, long before Descartes. I don't think such a soul exists; there is as little evidence of its creation whole upon first appearance in a new human, or its development over time, as there is of gods.
Throughout this piece you use the word Mind, never Soul, but clarity between the two is required. The first three sections of the Wikipedia article "Soul" are a good start. It seems obvious to me that Lions have minds, and that we don't have souls.
Certainly I would agree that anthropocentrism and the imagining of a soul long pre-date the Enlightenment. These ideas found crisp expression in the Enlightenment, which amplified both. Certainly a framework that gifted to humans alone a mind/soul was egregiously anthropocentric, so I would not say that dualism has nothing to do with it.
LOL Tom
I will bite.
You are totally, hilariously wrong.
The only thing that exists is mental states.
Every experience you have ever had or ever will have is a mental state.
That material world that you THINK exists is the results of some types of consistency (a mental evaluation) that has been abstracted (another mental process) from experiences in your mental states.
And it gets even funnier than that, you seem to think that because some kinds of abstractions from the experiences of your mental states match up with a completely abstract, totally non material mathematical formula means that mental states are not real. ROTFLMAO
Your ideas about reality are just that Tom, IDEAS.
This conversation reminds me of the debate over Light.
Is it a discrete particle or is it a continuous wave?
answer: yes it is
LOL I see Tom did not like my response.
I understand, it can be really frustrating when all your thoughts and efforts about material nature of reality gets trumped when someone notices that the only thing they have ever experienced or ever will experience is a flow of mental states. And all that talk about material reality is just that TALK, they are just IDEAS about that thing we call reality.
So, No Tom,
I am not going to give up my mind.
You already admit that your ideas about reality are tentative. Sure, they may be consistent, logical, mathematical and have some predictive capability but those are all qualities of some ideas. (not necessarily qualities of reality)
How about we both keep our Minds and you give up on the idea that you really understand Reality?
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.”
Philip K. Dick
LOL
Well if Philip K Dick wants to define reality as those aspects of the flow of mental states you experience that are persistent and you don't have conscious control over, I don't have a problem with that.
But if want to use that quote to imply that the nature of existence is physical not mental, you are out of luck.
Somehow I think this debate is not a new one!
Oh yeah Bart,
It is an ancient debate.
The idealists win on the philosophical level.
But the materialist point of view is so powerfully useful people find it very easy to mistake it for reality.
I try to think about it with this phrase in my mind
"The Brightest Lights Cast the Deepest Shadows"
Both the materialist and idealist points of view are very bright lights, but they cast very different shadows.
That is why i think it is important to hold on to fundamentally incompatible ideas about existence. That is why i think Tom is being fundamentally foolish in promoting his mono-vision of reality.
I’ve had lots of interaction with the physical world and I respect it. That puts me in the materialist camp
But of course it’s more complicated than just idealism vs materialism. Because we are social primates with certain brain structures and sense organs, we perceive the world in specific ways.
In the end I’m more interested in the result – how people behave – rather than their religion or philosophical orientation.
Not approving any more comments until you tone it down.
Well you know, if you look back at history, when some group of people starts to argue that others don't have a soul or have less of a mind it is a precursor to doing great harm to those people.
So Tom's argument that we have neither minds nor souls is viewed by me a necessary precursor to dehumanizing most of the human race and treating them as disposable meat bots.
Now i am pretty sure that is not Tom's goal, (i think he wants to just "call them as he sees them") but these ideas get picked up and used by other far less moral people for their own ends.
So i feel that opposing these ideas strongly is very important.
I see that Tom did not like this reply.
But his philosophy describes human beings as:
Soulless
Mindless
Machines with evil intent ( being "human supremacists" like Nazi's and the KKK)
And that these mindless, soulless, supremacist meat bots are doing great harm to things that are actually valuable ( the rest of the living world)
And it looks like we are headed into very difficult times economically, politically and militarily.
So it sure looks like to me Tom's philosophical outlook can quite easily be adapted to justify the most horrible of actions. I am reminded of a theme that showed up in Bruce Sterlings early work….. Genocidal Saints……mass murderers for the environment.
The Genocidal Saints did the most horrible things, while thinking they were doing good.
A monstrous twist on my perspective, for sure. Humans are as we find them: adaptable, and quite capable of living in ecological reciprocity for long periods of time. I stress over and over that modernity is not humanity, but like a cancer some (now most) humans suffer. I do see modernity as an evil regime, but a fleeting one that is not particularly faithful to core human traits.
Lack of a magical (immaterial) soul or a "mind" that is anything other than an incredible expression of complexity using basic interactions of physics does not change the good qualities humans possess, and the potential for living in right relationship for the long term. All the other nastiness seems like a sort of projection, but I guess I can't help that some will elect to misinterpret in this way.
I would like to point out that from a scientific materialistic point of view, Tom tells a very deceptive story about naive ignorant people and the smart truth telling scientists.
"It was likewise self-evident that a rock was completely solid, rather than mostly empty space, whose mass exists in the form of nuclei occupying 0.0000000000001% of the volume. While it sure looks and feels solid to our blunt senses, the truth is more complicated"
No Tom your are being very deceptive.
You start out talking about the concept of SOLID, then you very deceptively swap out SOLID for the scientific concept of MASS. And then assert it is just empty space. That is just a lie and Tom knows it.
The electrons in atoms have a small amount of mass and they move very fast and they fill up that volume in an atom. And electrons are not just particles they also have characteristics of waves. And even more importantly electrons have CHARGE as does the nucleolus of the atom. And the differences in charge create fields that fill the space and provides the internal structure for atoms.
And it becomes very obvious that Tom is just full of it when you think of an actual example of a solid and a liquid. Take water. Its mass distribution in the atoms that make up water doesn't change when it goes from solid ice to liquid water. He is just throwing out some sciencey factoid so you don't think clearly about what he is asserting.