Originally published on May 27, 2025.
Andrew Millison will be joining us on September 30, 2026, at our live event, The Big Fix: Lessons from Two Large-Scale Restoration Projects. In the lead-up, we’re revisiting this conversation with him about how permaculture and land restoration projects can help address complex ecological challenges. Register today to attend this Zoom event.
(Conversation recorded on April 16th, 2025)
Show Summary
It’s no secret that massive change is needed to restore our planet’s vital ecosystems. Permaculture offers practices to restore local environments by focusing on creating sustainable agricultural systems that mimic patterns found in nature. But how might permaculture initiatives go beyond agriculture to transform some of our largest-scale problems, such as social cohesion, climate stabilization, and even human migration?
In this conversation, Nate sits down with permaculture educator Andrew Millison to discuss the Great Green Wall project, a massive ecological initiative aimed at combating desertification in the Sahel region of Africa. They explore the causes of the Sahara Desert’s expansion, the simple but impactful permaculture techniques being employed to restore land, and the significant ecological and nutritional benefits resulting from these efforts. This conversation highlights the collaboration between local communities and global organizations, emphasizing permaculture’s potential to transform lives and ecosystems around the world.
How can innovative permaculture techniques aid in helping our most complex ecological challenges? In what ways have land restoration projects reduced conflict between people in resource-scarce areas? Furthermore, what kinds of responses – both grassroots and top-down – are needed to implement these practices on a large scale?
About Andrew Millison
Andrew Millison is an innovative educator, storyteller and designer. He founded the Permaculture Design education program at Oregon State University (OSU) in 2009. At OSU Andrew serves as an Education Director and Senior Instructor who offers over 25 years of experience, and a playful approach to regenerative design. Andrew is also a documentary videographer who travels the world documenting epic permaculture projects in places such as India, Egypt, Mexico, Cuba, and throughout the US. You can view his videos and series on his YouTube channel.
Show Notes & Links to Learn More
00:00 – Andrew Millison, University page, YouTube Channel
00:48 – The Great Green Wall, Countries involved
01:05 – Oregon State University Permaculture Design
02:27 – Permaculture, Exploration of principles
03:40 – Millison’s popular Great Green Wall video, His others: 1, 2 (showing long-term effects), & 3
03:50 – Sahara Desert, Saharan Desert expansion by 10%, History as a desert
06:20 – Causes of Desertification, Scramble for Africa
08:40 – The United Nations World Food Programme, Volli Carucci
10:45 – The Sahel
10:50 – Issues with the African Great Green Wall
11:19 – Agroecology, Agroforestry, Ecological Restoration
12:25 – Water Harvesting, Soil Building, Soil Microbiology, Hydrology
14:30 – Relationship between productive land and migration
15:25 – Sudanese civil war, Issues in Mali and Burkina Faso
15:50 – Senegal Great Green Wall successes
16:30 – Subsistence farming, Nomadic herding
17:30 – Water-Harvesting Half Moons, Different styles, Silvopasture system
20:48 – Acacia seyal
21:56 – The Great Green Wall hss improved malnutrition rates
23:26 – Planet Wild, Trees for the Future, Natalie Topa, Danish Refugee Council
26:17 – Relationship between desertification and climate change
27:30 – Niger government’s commitment to restoration, Niger coup
28:01 – Benefits of the Great Green Wall: Biodiversity improvement, Cooling temperature
30:40 – African Great Green Wall origin
32:45 – Water table, Borewell
33:11 – Effects of rainfall in the desert, Erosion
34:01 – Aquifer
34:33 – Sahel rainy season
34:57 – Perennial vs. Annual plants
35:41 – Amazon TGS episodes: Carlos Nobre, André Guimarães
35:46 – Some parts of Amazon Rainforest at risk of becoming a savanna
36:20 – Relationship between Sahara and Amazon
36:49 – Biotic pump, Trees and rain relationship
38:01 – Record rains in Sahel in 2024
39:02 – The complex history between herders and farmers
40:42 – Fertility Rates in Africa and Niger
43:24 – Chad electricity statistics
44:47 – Seawater Agriculture, Halophyte, Millison’s YouTube video
46:25 – Genetically modifying plants to withstand salt
47:20 – Animal-Industrial Complex, Global calorie provision from livestock
50:55 – “Anti-lawn” Movement, Millison’s Kill Your Lawn and Grow Food! video
51:18 – Total area of lawns in the United States
51:28 – The environmental burdens of lawn maintenance
51:50 – History of the lawn, Evolutionary psychology behind our draw to lawns
52:58 – Homeowner association
55:00 – Sheet mulching
Comments
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We need a lot more research.. Governments and think tanks should lead research initiatives……
From simple search in internet:
The Sahara—known today as the world's largest desert, with temperatures exceeding 50 degrees—was, just 8,000 years ago, a lush green landscape teeming with flora and fauna.
It turned green due to a shift in the Earth's axial tilt, which caused the monsoon rain belt to move further south than it does today. The rains that now fall on Mediterranean countries once watered the Sahara region.
However, the climate changed again around 5,500 years ago. The monsoon gradually retreated, rainfall decreased, and the vegetation slowly dwindled. A thousand years earlier, the people of North Africa had adopted a pastoral lifestyle, taking advantage of the Sahara's lush environment to graze their cattle on its grasslands.
Until now, researchers believed the Sahara turned into a desert because herders abandoned their practices and adopted a nomadic lifestyle. Now, we have learned that ancient herders may have actually delayed this desertification—by as much as 500 years.