A few remarks in this post arising from an episode of Nate Hagen’s always interesting ‘Great Simplification’ podcast, in this instance with chemical engineer and hydrogen expert Paul Martin.
A key message I took from Martin’s remarks is that hydrogen has various important uses as an industrial chemical – principally for agricultural fertiliser – but is pretty much a non-starter as the currency of a future green industrial energy economy, for various reasons connected with its energetic, physical and chemical properties.
While hydrogen is being talked up as a potential solution for decarbonizing industry, in Martin’s view it’s less a decarbonization solution than a decarbonization problem, partly because of its climate forcing effects in the atmosphere and partly because almost all of it in human use is derived from fossil fuels. A lot of future hope is pinned on using low-carbon electricity to make ‘green’ hydrogen as the medium for various industrial and energetic processes, but Martin says it almost never makes sense to use electricity to produce hydrogen as a combustible energy source, mostly because of poor energy returns on investment. It’s better to use electricity directly to replace processes based on fuel combustion in the fossil economy, like heat pumps for gas boilers and electric engines for petrol ones.
All this is quite relevant to some of the concerns of my recent writing, in particular manufactured food. The most heavily touted approach involves feeding hydrogen, among other chemicals, to species of hydrogen-oxidising bacteria, resulting in high-protein edible biomass. But to do that in a renewable and climate-friendly way, first you need green hydrogen. There’s not much of it around currently and, per Paul Martin’s comments, whether it makes sense to produce it is questionable. In sectors that have traditionally burned fuel to do a job, the new-fangled idea is to do it directly with electricity and without fuel (back to the electric vehicles and heat pumps). By comparison, in the food sector there isn’t a way of producing food directly with electricity. But there is a direct, zero carbon energy source for food – that big ol’ ball of fire tracking across the sky each day. So – farming. Not, I confess, a new-fangled idea, but old-fangled isn’t always the worst way to get things done.
The only reason it makes any sense to even contemplate a green hydrogen rather than a solar route for food production is because solar energy is diffuse, meaning that farming is land-hungry, especially if people want to eat high up the food chain, which they generally do. And the problem with agricultural land hunger is that it potentially crowds out other species – which is often bad for us, and is always bad for them.
So we arrive at this line of reasoning:
- Farming may be bad for wildlife
- We may be able to replace (some) farming with (some) food produced via a green hydrogen route
- Producing green hydrogen may be less bad for wildlife than farming
- The land saved from farming by green hydrogen food may become available for wildlife
There are a lot of ‘mays’ in that chain, each one vulnerable to the counter-possibility that it ‘may not’. I’d suggest the analogue in the food sector to Martin’s point about bypassing the hydrogen energy economy and taking the direct route to the goal is to focus on the ‘may’ in Point 1 and let go of all the other mays. So let’s farm, while trying to make it less bad for wildlife. More on that another time.
Let’s now turn from energy forms to energy flows. Life can be tough if you have no or little access to useful energy beyond what’s in the food you eat. But if you have access to too much energy – as an individual, as a country or as a species – life can also get tough for yourself, for other people servicing your demands, or for other species. So we need to find a sweet spot that works for people and other species worldwide, grounded in plausible clean energy futures.
Let’s go back to those electric vehicles and heat pumps for a moment. My household lives an off-grid but pretty high-tech lifestyle, with domestic life energized mostly by an array of twenty photovoltaic panels and a small wind turbine, along with wood for space and winter water heating from the adjacent woodland we planted (plus a bit of LPG for cooking). We have just about enough electricity from our generating setup to run a typical modern high-energy home, although it’s a bit touch and go in the winter. We don’t have enough to run an electric car (we’ve got an electric goods delivery trike, which is challenging enough to energise year-round), nor enough to run an air-source heat pump.
A lot of the discussion on the podcast focused on the relative costs of different forms of energy, in money or energetic terms. Which is fine. But I’d like to hear more about absolute availabilities or, to put it another way, expected flows. Sure, you get more energy return for energy invested from a heat pump, but if I tried to run one from my setup in the winter I’d have no energy left to do anything else, and probably not even enough to run the pump properly a lot of the time.
My bad, maybe, for running such a piffling little off-grid system. Although by global or historic standards, it’s not that piffling. And it confronts me with the daily reality of just how little energy by contemporary standards all this high-tech circuitry, battery arrays, PV panels and suchlike provides. So my question is not so much whether things like heat pumps are a good choice on a present energy price or EROEI basis, but whether they’re a feasible choice for society at large on an expected energy flow basis.
On a trip the other day, I witnessed huge diesel-powered construction machines scouring the earth and putting steel and concrete bridge architecture in place, three huge tractors in one field ridging it for potatoes, a tractor in another field spraying synthetic fertilizer and, in the harbour at the end of the trip, a ferry, cruise liner and fishing boats belching diesel fumes from smokestacks that make the one on my tractor look as thin as a hair. Plus uncountable numbers of fossil-powered trucks, cars and buses plying the roads. Non-renewable fossil energy everywhere I looked. I get that electrification offers efficiency gains, but you’re telling me we’re going to electrify all that in the next few decades? How?
On top of that gargantuan task, the boosters of manufactured food are wanting us to use yet more generated electricity to make food. With that, the gargantuan task gets way bigger still. Then there’s population and economic growth and the expected or ongoing transitioning of low/middle income and energy economies to higher income and higher energy to contend with.
Maybe I’m missing something that everybody else can see, but I’m just not finding the evidence to suggest that all this prodigious and growing energy use can be sustained on the back of low carbon electricity. Hardly anyone seems to be even discussing it. Nate and Paul Martin didn’t really discuss it, even though they’re super well-versed in energy issues – though, to be fair, Nate’s discussed it with other guests on his podcast like Simon Michaux, whose argument in a nutshell is no it can’t be. The International Energy Agency has just brought out a big report which necessarily is more upbeat in its messaging, but reading between the lines looks to me not far off saying no it can’t be too. The vibe I got from Nate’s podcast was basically that this is the big challenge of our age that we need to overcome. Well, what if we can’t?
Paul Martin made some thought-provoking remarks during the podcast that bear on this. He raised the idea that humanity has been having a fossil fuel party for the past 300 years which, he said, has released us from abject poverty and slavery. But now the party’s over and people are latching onto all sorts of foolish things like the hydrogen energy economy in a vain attempt to prolong it. Later, he admonished listeners not to be Luddites, not to blame technology or to think that there was some great agrarian past we can return to when everyone was in harmony with nature.
I think there’s some grain in these comments that needs sorting from the chaff. Yes, the party’s over, and yes people are latching onto foolish things like manufactured food to try to prolong it. And no, indeed there wasn’t some great agrarian past we can return to when everyone was in harmony with nature. But there may be opportunities to create an agrarian future that’s better than the present, a future where people will have a greater chance to be in harmony with nature than most of us today (they could hardly be less). And in that future people may be open to learning from numerous premodern pasts, many of which did not involve abject poverty or slavery (conditions that in any case the modern energy economy has manifestly failed to extinguish, and has often exacerbated).
To foster those opportunities there’s a lot to be said for embracing Luddism – that is, for assessing whether new technologies are likely to benefit in the round the people or other organisms they affect and, if not, organising against them. In that respect, I thought Martin’s criticisms of green hydrogen boosterism and his exhortations for people to do work that makes the world a better place were excellent examples of low-key Luddism in action.
But invoking the low-energy past as a kind of bogeyman of unredeemed misery constrains thinking about the future and delivers us back into the techno-fix space, even when – as per Martin’s criticisms of green hydrogen – we’re well aware of the ‘latching on to anything’ it involves. Hence, I think, the void in public culture around realistic energy futures. With our scornful view of the past, we just can’t conceive of energy solutions involving less, so we imagine there’ll be more because there has to be more. I’m beginning to think of this scorn for low energy pasts as perhaps the biggest impediment to a liveable future.
The issue of nitrogenous fertilizer touched on in the podcast is also relevant here. As discussed therein, about half the nitrogen in human bodies nowadays comes from the Haber-Bosch ammonia synthesis process, which greatly boosted crop yields when it was introduced. But even as it boosted crop yields it destroyed work – this ‘nitrogen capitalism’, in Aaron Benanav’s term, was, says Benanav, the major destroyer of livelihoods in the 20th century. Some of those lost agrarian livelihoods got reconfigured as urban industrial ones, but there’s no guarantee this can be sustained. And the fact that half of our nitrogen nutrition now relies on Haber-Bosch doesn’t mean that half of us would die without it, as incautious commentators are apt to claim. It probably does mean we need to rethink the nature of livelihood. And ‘abject poverty’. And Luddism. And how much energy is enough. But doing all that is long overdue.
Teaser photo credit: Frame-breakers, or Luddites, smashing a loom. Machine-breaking was criminalized by the Parliament of the United Kingdom as early as 1721, the penalty being penal transportation, but as a result of continued opposition to mechanisation the Frame-Breaking Act 1812 made the death penalty available: see “Criminal damage in English law“. – Original unknown, this version from http://www.learnhistory.org.uk/cpp/luddites.htm (archive) Public Domain via Wikipedia.





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Agreed that a future of “fully automated luxury communism” or even one with mostly synthetic food is not going to happen, but, for the vast majority of the folks who read posts by Chris Smaje, a future of low energy agrarianism isn’t possible either. Fully developed modern nations are locked-in to very high energy consumption technologies. Without that energy, their populations die. And there is no surplus energy available to completly vacate modern cities and build a whole new agrarian infrastructure for all or even most of those people now living in cities.
The people that do have a chance to convert to an eco-friendly agrarianism are people who are already mostly there. They live almost entirely in the Global South. Smaje’s prescriptions make sense for the people in Burundi or New Guinea or even India, for example, but they can’t apply to most of Europe or America. There can be a smattering of folk in rich countries who move to the country and prepare to live a low-energy lifestyle (eventually), but they need enough money to buy decent land and set themselves up to be self-provisioning farmers.
Almost everyone who now lives in a city is trapped. They can’t live without the global supply chains that need huge amounts of energy to function and they can’t afford to leave their city. This is why there will never be a constituency for significantly reducing energy consumption in the rich world and degrowth will never be a public policy. This is also why rich-world economies need to collapse involuntarily if there is any chance for the climate. Here’s hoping.
I think I’ve argued with you before about this. Urban people can’t afford to buy farmland, but when the farms don’t have fossil fuel to burn they’ll need more labor–people will move to the country and when things begin falling apart, whether these people can produce deeds to the place they live may very unimportant. People don’t have the skills to farm– but they can learn. It doesn’t have to happen overnight (depending on how things play out).
Joe, in general I agree that people in the global south is much better prepared for this scenario. However, you should not disregard the immense stock of materials and buildings in the richer countries, which will be of much use in the future. Also, I don’t think a rapid collapse is the most relevant scenario, even though I don’t dismiss it outright. In the end that will depend on humans ability to adapt and bite the bullet.
If we could adapt and bite the bullet we would have long since brought emissions under control. Individuals can do it. Industries like CFCs that do not control the government can do it. As a society we cannot.
Good point about the stock of materials in rich countries. I live in an area of “gentleman farms” or “hobby farms”, with very little in the way of commercial farms except for mac nut orchards and cattle ranches. The housing on these small acreage farms could easily hold two or three families and here in the tropics the five or so acres that go with the house could feed those families.
I don’t know how many acres are occupied by gentleman farms in the US or Europe. I think Europe has very little, but they do have a lot of old abandoned farm houses and even villages which could be reoccupied. All this old and new housing in rural areas, however much there may be, is an asset for a post-collapse future, but I doubt that it could hold more than a tiny fraction of the existing urban population of a rich country.
You may be right about collapse being a long and drawn out process. I’m just hoping that it will be quick enough and early enough to prevent hothouse earth. It may be already too late according to James Hansen (who thinks 10C is already in the pipeline), but I remain ever hopeful. However it happens, people should be prepared for a sudden shutdown. There are many things that could cause a very rapid collapse and waiting for collapse to bite in earnest before doing any prepping is foolish.
It’s clear to me after reading this: Hagens needs to have Smaje on.
Very good idea!
I’ve been researching and writing about hydrogen since 2005. When it comes to energy it is all about energy return on invested. Martin talked about cost and all sorts of stuff that avoided the most important reasons about creation, storage, distribution, hydrogen fuel cells for heavy-duty transport being very far from commercial, and more
Hydrogen: The dumbest & most impossible renewable: https://energyskeptic.com/2019/hydrogen/
Storage issues: https://energyskeptic.com/2022/hydrogen-hopium-storage/
The difficulty of getting hydrogen from water: https://energyskeptic.com/2022/hydrogen-production-would-use-waaaaaaaaay-too-much-water
And other posts here: https://energyskeptic.com/category/energy/hydrogen/
There is no need to confuse people about using hydrogen. In summary hydrogen is the most versatile fuel and chemical in the universe. Initially it may be expensive in certain cases, but the bottom line without hydrogen certain very important things can not be done. The dirty form of hydrogen, (fossil fuels), right now power the world. Hydrogen will replace all fossil fuels by efuels, synthetic fuels, biofuels and green hydrogen. Other energy forms such as fossil fuels and nuclear are dirty, batteries are poor energy to weight carriers and are best only for hybrid applications. There is no solution for our planet other than green hydrogen and clean hydrogen fuels for the future.
That kind of comment is no help to the debate. It’s just an assertion; no references, no reference to EROEI, to resource depletion (building an alternate infrastructure, for instance), no mention of Entropy or Overshoot.
And base-line, who assumes a ‘solution’? To what? Please define. I suggest there are merely ‘best cards to play, given the circumstances’- and perhaps best times to play them. Direct sunlight capture is the least-loss energy going; Smaje is on the right track there. I suspect you are starting from a ‘we need to keep this going’ POV; that is not necessarily valid…
I agree with your scenario, but expect that it will involve only a tiny minority of people from urban situations. The people that flee the city as refugees will need to have something to offer owners of small farms, like a strong back and willingness to use it. A small farm like my own can always accommodate a few extra people even if they have to stay in outbuildings.
But commercial farmers won’t have much use for refugees because they won’t have any way to house or feed them. I just don’t see how a mass migration from the city to the country could work, especially since there seems to be no effort or even awareness of its necessity.
A reversal of the last century or two of urbanization could take many decades even with an all-out effort. In my view, once it becomes apparent that energy flows can’t maintain cities, it may only be months or years for cities to fail. If the grid goes down, it could happen in days.
A century ago people went into the west with covered wagons, built houses from sod, and vegan farming the land. Nothing was ready for them in advance. But today’s people will just quietly die in the cities rather than leave/ Some would’ some will commit suicide, or focus on trying to get by by stealing from the preppers. Likely there will also be lots of deaths from plague or famine or conflict or extreme weather also–so the numbers needing accommodation in the boondocks won’t be what it otherwise would. By the time the second wave arrives, the first will be well on their way to building themselves cob homes, or log or sod homes. Likely most will have to get by with no electricity. But you know, people somehow survived that right up until a century ago.