Show Notes

William Ury, co-founder of Harvard’s Program on Negotiation, is one of the world’s best-known practitioners of negotiation and mediation. William is co-author of Getting to Yes, a fifteen-million-copy bestseller translated into over thirty-five languages, and most recently author of the award-winning Getting to Yes with Yourself.

He addresses the question of “What Could Possibly Go Right?” with thoughts including:

  • That anger is a fuel essential for change, but the key is in whether it is deployed constructively or destructively.
  • That there’s a third side that unites us in conflicts.
  • That zooming out and changing your perspective to the “balcony” can rechannel your energy.
  • That there are three transformations needed to reframe and address conflict.
  • The working through of a live example of these mediation techniques with Vicki.

Resources

Connect with William Ury

Website: www.williamury.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/williamurygty

Transcript

Vicki Robin

Hi, Vicki Robin here, host of What Could Possibly Go right?, a project of the Post Carbon Institute, in which we interview people we call cultural scouts, people who see far and serve the common good, asking each one of them our same question. In these sort of murky and confusing times, and the times of crosscurrent, what do you see? What green shoots do you see sprouting? In other words, what could possibly go right? And today’s guest is William Ury. You’ll notice in the interview I call him Bill because we’re old friends, but he goes by William. He is the co-founder of Harvard’s program on negotiation, and is one of the world’s best known practitioners in negotiation and mediation. William is co-author of ‘Getting to Yes’, a 15 million copy bestseller translated into over 35 languages, and more recently, the author of the award-winning ‘Getting to Yes with Yourself’. Over the past four decades, Ury has served as negotiation advisor and mediator in conflicts ranging from family feuds and labour strikes to the Cold War and the Middle East conflict. He served for seven years as a senior negotiation adviser to Colombian President J M Santos to help bring an end to a 50 year civil war. He currently directs the Experimental Negotiation Initiative, a program of the OAS Foundation. Ury is founder of the Abraham Path, a long distance walking route across the Middle East, that traces the legendary journey of Abraham and his family. He is also co-founder of the Climate Parliament, which offers legislative leaders around the world a problem solving forum to bring about a green energy transition. So now, here’s my interview with William.

Vicki Robin

Welcome, Bill Ury, to What Could Possibly Go Right?, a project of the Post Carbon Institute, where we interview cultural scouts, people who see far and serve the common good, asking everybody our one question, which is also the name of the podcast: What could possibly go right? I’m particularly excited to have you on because you have been helping millions of people around the world, understand how to navigate and negotiate and resolve often intractable conflicts. I know you’ve boiled it down to a three step process, which you can outline briefly if you like. But we will link to your most recent articles or YouTubes for people to go deeper, so you don’t have to do the educational piece. And I asked for brief, as I really want to see through your eyes in this most extremely difficult moment, when social glue is low, when there’s little agreement on the facts of the matter, and entrenched bullies everywhere. So you say you’re a possibleist, rather than an optimist or a pessimist. And I’ve been a possibleist too. But lately, it’s hard to hold on to that. I have become a hothead and it’s seeped into many crevices in my mind, all the way down to the weeds in my garden. So I am personally eager to gain some insight on our one question. In the face of all that’s going awry inside us and around us, where are the green shoots of another way sprouting in this moment? What could possibly go right? Over to you.

William Ury

Thank you. It’s a real pleasure to see you again. I love the title, What Could Possibly Go Right? because as you mentioned, I used to say I’m not an optimist, but more deeply, I like to say I’m a possibleist. And a possibleist, mind you, is clear-eyed enough to look at the negative possibilities. All the things that could go wrong, possibly go wrong, that seemed to be going wrong right now, including the ones that are making you a hothead, which is healthy, right? Because anger surfaces when boundaries are being violated. There are sacred boundaries being violated right left and centre in our larger body politic and closer to home in the world. And so anger is essential.

But how the anger is deployed? That’s the question, because anger can be deployed constructively and be deployed constructively. So it’s a fuel but how do you use the fuel? And for me, there are negative possibilities and there are positive possibilities. We’re at a moment, culturally, socially, planetary; we’re in a moment of crisis. And in crisis, complex systems start to break down. There’s this moment when things could either break down, which they seem to be for those of us who were like, Wow, looking at the scene. Or there’s a possibility of break-through at the same moment. And what determines whether we go to break-down or break-through? And it turns out in complex systems, it turns out to be very little things that shift. In this case, I would say the little thing that shifts is us, right? Can we shift? Can we shift the way we look at the world, which is what I call “go to the balcony”? Can we go to a place of perspective? Can we ground ourselves? Can we tune in to the better angels of our nature? Can we then build bridges?

That’s the second step; balcony leads to bridge. Can we build bridges for the people who violently disagree with us or who we violently disagree with? Can we do that? And lastly, since that’s so difficult to go to the balcony, particularly in these times when we get reactive and hot-headed, and it’s so difficult to build bridges with people with whom it seems like the differences in values, the chasm, never has seemed greater. There’s what I call the third side that shows up.

The third side is nothing but our most ancient birthright for dealing with conflicts, which is us collectively as a whole, coming together. The whole unites the different sides. The third side is the side we don’t see but it’s the side around us. It’s the friends, the allies, the onlookers, even the parties themselves. It’s our most ancient birthright. I’ve watched the so-called Bushmen of the Kalahari, who are hunters and gatherers, they circle around the campfire, and that third side becomes a container or a cauldron within which even the most difficult, toxic conflicts can gradually get transformed, like an ancient alchemy from lead into gold. Is that easy? It’s the hardest work we can do. That’s the work that’s being invited of us right now.

Vicki Robin

It’s the hardest work we can do. I mean, my problem is going to the balcony at the moment, because…

William Ury

If you’re angry, you will make the best speech you’ll ever regret.

Vicki Robin

Exactly. Oh, man, and I am penning those speeches. When I get pissed off, excuse the expression, I’m like writing letters to the editor in my head. I’m trying to unfold in the 300 words of a letter to the editor, some of that third side space. I get what you’re talking about, and we all hate that da-da-da. And at the same time, maybe we’re not talking about the actual things that are going on. I’m a writer, so I’m doing that. I think what you said is so interesting, that really, the issue is us. In a way, I don’t think I’m the only person in the world who’s a hothead at the moment. So, what I’m seeing is that the polarization is in me. I’m polarized. I’m not trying to solve a problem out there with my clever mind. So where do you see, how do you see people get out of that sort of box canyon?

William Ury

Well, the challenge is, there are kind of three practices, I would say, of going to the balcony. And practices, I mean, they’re not steps. They’re things you just have to practice all the time. One, they’re arts. One is the art or practice of pausing. Can we pause? We’re so locked into social media. Hey, take a break! You live on Whidbey Island and there’s natural beauty around you. Go for a walk, go for a swim, whatever you’d like. Some people meditate, whatever they do. But I like to walk in nature, because nature for me is the great grounder. These mountains have been here forever, it puts it all in perspective. Because you read the news, or you hear what’s going on and of course, your nervous system gets agitated, right? There’s a little psychological theory about our nervous system I find useful. It’s called polyvagal theory, but basically it’s very simple. Our nervous system, you can either get highly hyper-activated, agitated, angry, activated, anxious and all that. And we do that, but we’re not effective, right? You’re not going to be an effective activist if you’re in that zone. What we do is we drop down, we get burned out, and then we drop down into hypo-activation, which is despair and numbness and world’s going to hell in a handbasket, and zone out and whatever, which is natural.

In between those two, there’s optimal activation, where you have your emotions. You get angry, you get concerned and fear, and all those emotions have a role to play, but within that is what’s called the zone of tolerance. If we can stay within that zone, we’re going to be most effective at standing up to the moment right now, when we’re the ones who will decide, who’ll choose whether we go down to societal and planetary environmental breakdown, or whether we can find our way to a breakthrough. It’s entirely up to us. It’s entirely possible right now. There’s still time, there’s still energy. I mean, you think about it. I started off as an anthropologist studying human beings, and in the micro and in the macro human evolution. The question I wanted to ask was: it seems to me, with the nuclear threat which I grew up under – it’s still there, though people have forgotten about it a little bit – but how is it that so early into our story as a species, a few million years. We think of dinosaurs as being the extinct species, but they were around for hundreds of  millions of years.

Why are we on such a self destructive course? Why are we self destructive? What’s going on? What’s the story here? And so I’ve sat with that question and I’ve wandered the world as an anthropologist, as a mediator and negotiator trying to see, in the world’s hotspots where everyone’s hot headed, what does it take to calm things down, to find breakthroughs? And I’ve witnessed them. I witnessed the end of the Cold War, and I was there in Moscow and Washington. I witnessed the end of apartheid in South Africa, the transformation in Northern Ireland between the Catholics and Protestants, and countless other places. The end of the Colombian Civil War, which has been 50 years civil war. So I know it’s possible.

Question is, how do we do it in the remaining situations, whether it’s climate change, or whether it’s toxic political polarization here in this country? And I think we can do it. I believe humans can do it. We’ve done it. That’s how come we made it this far. And it does start with us. It’s not the problem. As difficult as the other people are, as difficult, obnoxious, impossible as they are, the most difficult person we have to deal with and the one who gets in the way of us getting done what we’d like to get done, what we’d like to see in the world, is right here. It’s the person I look at in the mirror every morning. It’s me. So it starts here. And then once we do a little bit of listen to ourselves, calm ourselves down, get into that optimal zone of tolerance, then we can begin to listen to the other side. And that’s hard because they’re saying things we don’t want to hear, but only through listening to them – deeply listening, not the way we usually listen, which is within our frame of reference and just judging, “Oh, that’s stupid. Whatever it is, I disagree with that.” No, putting ourselves in their shoes within their frame of reference, only through that pathway do we have a hope of being able to reach an agreement. And the truth is as difficult and as impossible as all the problems are around us. The truth is there is no challenge facing humanity right now that couldn’t be addressed satisfactorily if only we could get to yes. So the problem is us. I remember talking to an elder of the Sami tribe, one of the most peaceful tribes in the world, and I asked him about war. He said, Well, war is made by humans; it can be stopped by humans. All these problems are made by us; they can be stopped by us. It’s that simple. It’s hard. But it’s simple.

Vicki Robin

Well, so here I’m going to challenge you on this. Not that you’re wrong. But, that’s sort of what is a 30,000 or 16,000 mile view? Wherever Jeff Bezos is at the moment in space. But where, through whom, do you see evidence that people or groups or governments are making the choices that you suggest, such that the temperature is lowering in some of these conflicts? Whether you’re involved or not.

William Ury

Let me say this. I see it everywhere. Because the thing is the media, they don’t cover this stuff, because they’re an industry based on fear, mostly, and they’re going to cover the bad news, right? They’re never going to cover when there’s a constructive thing. Or rarely, I shouldn’t say never. If I read the news, and I read the news every day, it’s bad news, basically. So it’s happening, in small scale and communities around the world. It’s happening in large scale in a lot of societies. There’s a lot of stuff going on, accompanying with the stuff that’s really difficult. The temperature is not just going down, the temperature is zooming up. It’s funny, I spent the majority of my life working on intractable conflicts, impossible conflicts around the world. The Middle East, Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Venezuela, Colombia, Cold War, you name it, only to discover that, in my home country, we have an intractable conflict, a seemingly intractable conflict.

And what makes an impossible conflict? To me, it’s three things. The emotions are toxic. Right? So toxic anger, toxic fear, toxic denial. The second thing is the positions that people take as right, as you know, are deeply entrenched, rigidly opposed. And the third thing is the way they deal with it is a fight, try to tear down the democracy, whatever it is. People fight it to the point of violence. And the question is, how do we transform the conflict? To think somehow we have this imaginary idea that conflicts get resolved. Most of these conflicts, they don’t get resolved, I’m sorry to say. I’ve worked in the field for a long time. They don’t get resolved. The conflict in South Africa didn’t get resolved, it’s still going on. The conflict in Northern Ireland didn’t get resolved, still going. But it gets transformed. And what that means is, instead of basically using very destructive means, like violence and killing each other, and genocide and all kinds of terrible things, people decided to try to handle the conflict through democratic means, through elections to democracy, through dialogue, through whatever, but it continues to be conflictual.

It’s not like you end conflict. I think that would be utopian. And in fact, maybe even not desirable, because conflict, as you know, whenever there’s injustice, I believe actually the world needs more conflict, not less conflict. But it needs healthy conflict. And the way to get to healthy conflict, it’s hard, and we’re in that moment, and we’re learning. As human beings, we always prefer to learn the hard way before we learn the easy way. I don’t know why. But we’re slow learners in that sense. And there’s a lot of possibility I see out there. I mean, in the last decade, the thing I spent the most time on was the Colombian Civil War. People said that’s absolutely impossible. 50 years of civil war, never going to end,  it’s so deeply entrenched in the society. 250,000 people dead, 8 million victims, mostly women, it was just god awful. And over seven years, eight years working very close as an advisor to the President and with others, we were able to transform that conflict. Is it over? Nope, it’s not over. Does Colombia still have a lot of problems? It does. But it’s changed. It’s transformed. And that’s hard work. It’s not utopian work. But it’s the work that we’re called upon to do. It’s the work that Martin Luther King called upon us to do. There was a transformation of the civil rights movement. Is it over? Obviously, we know not, right? Now, that’s the work that Gandhi called upon us to do. And Gandhi incidentally believed in anger. He believed he thought anger was a holy fuel. I remember talking to his grandson once. He said, that’s the fuel, but don’t waste it. We waste the anger, we waste the anger by lashing out like this and no, anger is the key fuel for action. But use it, husband it carefully, use it skillfully. And it will get you where you want to go. We need more anger in the world, but anger well deployed.

Vicki Robin

So I’m going to drill down. I’m trying to pull you down from the general. In terms of, let’s say, things that are hot button issues, like abortion. Oh, let’s just take the one that’s super hot now, which is critical race theory. I mean, the fact that that was nabbed by a marketer, they figured out that they could rebrand it as something that would stick to Democrats and never let go. And now there are face offs. We had one in our own community. How do you prove something like that, where the term that was being used, as a way to unlock something about the problem suddenly gets grabbed, redefined, and deployed against the people who’ve been trying to find the middle way, if you will? Okay, so rock and roll.

William Ury

So let’s just take it through, what I call the three transformations. It’s transformer conflict. First, you got to go to the balcony, which means transform your perspective, transform the way you see the conflict. So we’re on the balcony right now. Right? So you zoom in, right? You say, what’s really wanted here? What would you like to see? What’s the deal? Let me ask you this, because you’ve obviously thought a lot about this. What would you like to see? What’s the deep interest here? What do you most want? Behind the critical theory whole thing, that’s all kind of a thing, but what do you most want?

Vicki Robin

Yeah, what I want is to live in a society where we’re solving our problems together. Where stuff comes up and rather than facing off, we circle up.

William Ury

Okay, great. Okay, you’ve zoomed in you. You kind of located what you most want, which is I want to see a society in which people solve their problems together, right? So then every single action that you take with your anger, you hold it up against that criterion. Is this going to bring me closer to a society in which we’re going to all solve our problems together? Or am I going to be part of the solution or am I can be part of the problem? So that the key thing. But going back to just keep your eyes on the prize, because the truth is in conflict, we lose sight of the prize, of course, and we end up acting in ways that go directly opposite to what we’re trying to achieve. So that’s why it’s so important to go to the balcony, because if you don’t, you’ll go in the opposite direction, right? You end up putting fuel on the fire instead of putting the fire out, which is what you want to do in order to work together. Knowing that from the balcony, then okay, let’s approach the other side for a moment. That’s some work on yourself, right? You zoom in and actually zoom out and you see the big picture. So if you look at the big picture, the big societal picture in which critical race theory plays a role. It’s like there’s a play going on. It’s a play and there are a lot of actors in the play. And you identify who are the key actors, and just this for a moment, looking at that play, taking that big picture. Let me ask you this question. Who would you like to influence? Who could do what tomorrow morning that would change or move towards a more constructive way of solving problems in the society, including around critical race theory?

Vicki Robin

Oh, it would be so nice if Mitch McConnell had a come to Jesus moment. I mean, really. He’s sort of a linchpin in the Congress.

William Ury

Okay. That’s great. Well, let’s take old Mitch here. Okay. So, you have to be audacious, right? So take Mitch, let’s go to the top here. Mitch is one player in this, but he’s a key player, and a lot of the forces get played out through him. Right. So let’s just take him, what would you like Mitch to do?

Vicki Robin

I would like him without losing face, because he’s taken positions, but the way he did, which was slightly charming, in the trial is that he voted not to impeach. And then he gave a blistering speech about Trump, not that I’m wanting him to do blistering speeches, but he found a way to both be of integrity, and hold to his persona, and hold the line in his party. So I would like him to find a way to make it right, with himself and his colleagues, without losing face, they’re maintaining their dignity, blah, blah, blah, without losing their base to say, something like, I would like him to have it be his idea that we need to fundamentally lower the temperature on the kind of polarization in this country, because we’re getting nothing done. And so the Republicans are going to take responsibility for whatever it is, he’s going to get whatever it is passed, whether it’s the S1 or whatever. But I mean, that’s what I’d like to see happen, for him to find a face-saving way to switch his tune and carry his people along with him. And just make this strange misapprehension about critical race theory go away.

William Ury

That’s really good, Vicki. I think we’re on a roll here, because we are just making some progress. I’m not saying we’re there yet, but you went to the balcony. Now you’re thinking about how to build him a bridge, what I call golden bridge. Our job is not to make it harder for the other side. Our job is to make it as easier as possible for them to make the decisions we want them to make. So your job now is how do I make it as easy as possible for Mitch McConnell to do the right thing? To come out, make that statement you’d like him to make, that puts critical race theory to bed or somehow advances it. So one very useful exercise, we’re not gonna have time for you do this on the podcast, but just for you to think about is, what I find is one of the most useful exercises is to write the other side’s victory speech. You may recall from our previous encounter, so in other words, just write it out. It doesn’t have to be long, it could be just what would be the three bullet points, the three talking points.

Imagine Mitch McConnell talking to the people he cares about, maybe his constituents in Kentucky, it might be his key donors, it might be the Republican caucus. Just think about who the audience is for a moment, and imagine just the way you were doing beautifully. Okay, he’s got to save face, he’s got to keep his constituency, you got to do something a little bit like he did around the impeachment. And write down what he could, why he has chosen to follow Vicki Robin’s advice, although it’s his idea, and not yours. That’s very important. That’s the key part of building a golden bridge is it has to be his idea. And think about what argument he could make to his colleagues or his constituents, the people he cares about, about why it’s important to lower the temperature in America. Why it’s so vital to lower the temperature in America. If you were for a moment, just if I could put you on the spot here, let’s imagine you were Mitch, what would you say? What in like, 30 seconds, what could you say? You said, it’s so important for us as Americans to lower the temperature because A, B and C. What were they?

Vicki Robin

I don’t think he would say it out loud. I think he would say at the key Republicans and he’d say…

William Ury

Say it in the first person, if you would if you were Mitch. Play with it.

Vicki Robin

I’d be talking to my key Republicans and my key donors behind closed doors. I would say, the Republican brand is getting creamed by Mr. Trump, and we have to avoid him capturing the nomination in 2024. We simply do, because it’s the preservation of our party and it’s the preservation of our larger agenda. So I think we need to take this critical race theory idea away from him, and so that we can salvage the Republican Party.

William Ury

Well, that’s good. You’re on the path. That’s what’s called upon. And you see that. As you said, let me just say, do you think it’s at all impossible that he could actually say those things?

Vicki Robin

Oh, I don’t think it’s impossible at all. I think he’s calculating.

William Ury

So that’s the job. Exactly. So it’s possible. So just for a moment you went, rather than just putting your hot-head to work, you went to the balcony first. That way, that energy, that anger is really put it into constructive action. You zoomed in, you decided what was most important to you, what the prize was, which was all of us learning to solve our problems together as Americans. You’re zoomed out, saw the play, identified a key actor Mitch McConnell, you put yourself in his shoes. You tried to say, from his point of view, what would be a victory? What could he say? And now your job is, how do you make it easier for him to say that? And that’s where the third side comes in, which is just a name for the community. It’s for the larger community, because as bitter as this polarization is, there’s a larger American community, a larger whole to which we all belong, and which we occasionally remember. The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, the Union, what Lincoln stood for, and all of that. So, we remember that. And so how could the third side in this case, show up and encourage Mitch, to make it easier for him to do the right thing? Who would Mitch have to hear from?

Vicki Robin

Bill Ury!

William Ury

Well, you’re starting right here. Okay.

Vicki Robin

I think, the pollsters actually are revealing. Americans agree largely on a more compassionate – if you will, whether it’s left or right – a more compassionate, dignified and literally progressive, as in making progress on things. I think that the polling would have to go really south.

William Ury

There you go. So you just have to write a play. You envision it for a moment. Mitch hears from pollsters, Republican pollsters, right? Frank Luntz, for example.

Vicki Robin

Right. Let’s get Frank in there.

William Ury

Frank, he spent his lifetime listening to the Republicans and he knows how to frame things. So, then you think, Okay. How could I… Maybe you wanted to have a conversation with Frank and invite him on the podcast, but he might show up?

Vicki Robin

Oh, yes. A brilliant idea.

William Ury

No, seriously, because he’s interested in how America, what could possibly go right? I think he might very well, and then that’s how you do it. Then you seed him. Then you think, Mitch McConnell also cares about lead Republican donors. He’s big on that. The big business people. Well, business in this country right now is really worried about toxic polarization. Toxic polarization is terrible for business. They have to choose between one or the other and they lose customers, and it sends the markets down and everything is bad. So like you saw in the recent election. The Chamber of Commerce came out, believe it or not, came out and said, Lower the temperature, at the Business Roundtable. Lower the temperature. So Mitch listens to them. Those are his big donors. That’s a big constituency for him.

Vicki Robin

Yeah. You’re old friends. So it’s not a problem.

William Ury

There you go. He starts to hear from Frank, from big business, from National Chamber of Commerce, from the Business Roundtable, maybe someone in Kentucky. He starts to hear these messages and they encourage him to do what he already wants to do. He cares about the Republican Party. He cares about his legacy right now. He’s old, he’s not going to run for another term. He cares about his legacy, and his legacy is in danger. You can help him to craft it so that he can do the right thing. And then once you do that, the key thing is, once he did the right thing, what are the Democrats likely to do in response? A lot of people will just…

Vicki Robin

It wasn’t right enough, right? So we have to deal with the Democrats.

William Ury

So then you think about who in the Democratic Party? Maybe it’s Joe Biden. You know, Joe Biden and Mitch McConnell are kind of friends. They have a past. They were able to work together. So what could Joe Biden say in response to Mitch? And then what, and then you start to open up new possibilities, where it seems to be impossible.

Vicki Robin

It’s certainly like doing a power analysis. It has a little bit of that going to the balcony, getting out of the hot head, and then looking at the territory and the characters. I’ve noticed listening to others of your talks, I’ve noticed that a very common theme, is why I used it here, is giving people a pathway out of the stuck place, in which they don’t lose face, they maintain their dignity, and they don’t look like they’re losing. So for one second, I’m going to see if I can drag you down into what you see specifically now. Are there organizations, are there states, are there governors? Where do you see people exercising this muscle that you’re talking about, specifically?

William Ury

Yeah. I’m not that good with names, but I’ve definitely heard instances, and there are governors. I mean, the governor here in the state of Colorado, Jared Polis. This state is kind of balanced between red and blue, and it was for a long time was a swing state, and around COVID and around everything. So, just as an example, as a governor, you can’t just be ideological, you have to get govern a state, right? And there are many others. The Republican counterparts of his. There’s Larry Hogan, the governor of Maryland. Same kind of thing, through COVID through Maryland, which is again a divided state. They bring problem solving. Do you know that the caucus in the Congress called the problem solvers caucus? If you look at that, that people who basically are your allies, they want to see an America where people can solve problems, that the Chamber of Commerce does too. I can tell you, I’ve talked to them. I’ve talked to labor unions, the AFL-CIO. They want this to work. Faith leaders of various kinds, even so-called fundamentalists. People are worried about the fate of this country. They can see the country that they love going down the drain. No one wants to see that. I was in Washington a couple weeks ago, and I went back to the Lincoln Memorial, and I read the second inaugural address, again, with malice toward none, charity for all, let us bind up the wounds of this nation. That’s what’s being called for.

Vicki Robin

I think that is a perfect note to wind this up on. I hope that I’ve been the fall guy or fall girl for many people thinking through the intractable problems that they’re up against. I really feel like I’ve been served. I didn’t come to this for therapy. But I really feel like I’ve been served. What you did is you allowed my better angels to function here and to remove myself from what I feel is pretty low level consciousness, where I am reacting to extreme voices in the media and I’m reacting to the character of the media that is provocative, and I get provoked. So I think you walked me from reactive to strategic in just a short half hour. So thank you.

William Ury

You’re very welcome, Vicki. I hope everyone could do that. I have to do this work every day myself. These are hard earned lessons, and I fall off the balcony a lot. And you’ve got to get back on the balcony. It’s a life long practice. I want to wish you and every one of your listeners and viewers every success in it because only together, can we do this. And if not now, when? If not us, who?

Vicki Robin

Exactly. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for, and we are the third space. We are it. And so, thank you so much Bill for entertaining this question and being with me on the podcast.

William Ury

You’re so welcome.

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