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Evidence, please?

October 1, 2024

I spend a fair bit of time asking myself the question: Am I crazy?

I mean, without really wanting to do so, I seem to have landed on a fringe view within our culture, which is not a comfortable place for me in a social sense. I don’t love it. The easiest—seemingly most likely—explanation for the glaring mismatch is that I’m the one off kilter.

My statement: Modernity (even if defining starting 10,000 years ago) is a short-lived phase that will self-terminate—likely starting this century.

Common response: That’s crazy. Just look around you! We’ve created a new normal. Humans have transcended the bounds of nature—no longer mere animals. Ingenuity has unlimited potential, and we’re really on our way now. This changes everything, and we will never lose our technological mastery, now that we have found it. Modernity is our destiny—and kind-of the whole point of it all.  It’s what makes us truly human.

But let’s look at evidence: like evidence that modernity is a new normal that can go on at least as long as our species is around (relevant timescales are 106±1 years, or a million years plus-or-minus an order of magnitude).

What’s that? Zero evidence? Of course we can’t know. The future is not kind enough to present evidence to the present. Hmmm—maybe that’s because we’re so mean to the future, frantically robbing its lives of Earth’s bounty and biodiversity.

The basic observation that we can receive no evidence from the future cuts both ways, of course. I have no future evidence that modernity will begin shutting down within a century.

However, we are not completely in the dark, here. We know some things (see my previous post on things about which I can be relatively certain).  As obvious illustrations, we can be super-confident that day will follow night in a consistent cycle throughout our lives, that we will each die someday, and that the sun will render Earth uninhabitable on its way to spending its fuel.  In a similar fashion, we can lay claim to a host of other near-certainties even without evidence from the future.

Near-certainties

What do I think we can say about modernity with a reasonable degree of confidence?

  1. Modernity is a very new phenomenon on this planet: nothing of its kind has happened before.
  2. Even extending the boundary of modernity to a 10,000 year run since agriculture began, its duration is exceedingly short on evolutionary timescales—even compared to our species’ existence of 250–300 kyr, which itself is short compared to many species’ lifetimes (i.e., modernity is uncharacteristic of humans).
  3. The present hyper-active mode, characterized by science, is just 400 years old, and the industrial/fossil-fuel age is less than 200: a mere flash, contextually.
  4. Modernity relies on non-renewable resources dredged out of the depths that are not integrated into ecological cycles and often create unprecedented ecological harm—the full extent of which we can’t possibly yet know. Even traditional agriculture chews up land on thousand-year timescales (much faster these days)—besides setting up ecological disconnection and objectification, money and capitalism, toxic social hierarchies and power concentrations, and human-supremacist religious and political regimes.  For many materials, the prospect of depletion has become apparent after only a century or even decades of intense exploitation. The notion of maintaining current practices on millennium timescales is unsupported conjecture.  Today’s practices and material profile represent a one-time stunt.
  5. We have loads of evidence for rapidly declining ecological health, in virtually every measure. Accelerating biodiversity loss rates are consistent with the initiation of a sixth mass extinction. Modernity has every appearance of being grossly unsustainable.
  6. We’re sitting on such a glaring lack of evidence for other technological civilizations beyond Earth that it borders on evidence of there not being any (or at least rare in space and time: far short of a vibrant galactic civilization bombarding us with advertisements).

Maximum Likelihood

Taken together, the default position really ought to be that modernity is fleeting. The statements above would have to be flipped in order to offer a reassuring basis for modernity’s staying-power. A betting person would not be foolish to put a timescale on the reversal of fortunes that is commensurate with the time to get to this point: reverting to non-industrial form within a couple centuries, and wiped clean in 10,000 years or so. A more aggressive bettor would recognize that it usually takes far less time to knock something down than it does to build it up—especially when Earth is exhausted from the mayhem, unable to tolerate what it did for thousands of years leading up until now.

I guess what I’m saying here is: it’s not a 50/50 proposition lacking any context, where every gut-reaction opinion has equal value (consider: is it a 50/50 guess whether daylight will return tomorrow?). The burden of proof would seem to rest quite heavily on any person making the wild assertion that modernity is here as long as we wish it to be, barring only technological annihilation (i.e., too much technological success in the form of nuclear Armageddon or Matrix/Terminator style machine takeover; the latter “fantasy,” by the way, betrays the deepest ecological ignorance). As permanent as it may seem, observing modernity in full swing out the window is a very weak (transient) form of evidence, given adequate temporal perspective.

When someone huffs that we’re not going back to the Stone Age, is the reaction based on evidence, or on a universally supported/obvious-to-all model (like day following night), or on unexamined beliefs and emotion? To be clear, I’m not saying that the Stone Age is definitely where we’re going (some things have changed since then). But I cannot justify dismissing, out of hand, outcomes bearing a “lithic” flavor.

Cognitive Limits

Where is the evidence or historical insinuation to support the belief that modernity is here to stay? Is longevity a default position just because it’s really hard to work out how exactly modernity—so firmly entrenched and familiar—would go away? If so, why would we bind ourselves to limited imagination? One relevant question: do such statements of confidence in modernity’s staying-power tend to come from the least or the most ecologically ignorant among us? Realize that brains are not masters of reality, and no human knows more about ecology than they don’t know (i.e., we’re all ignorant, dog).

Brains are evolved, intricate meat-organs capable of cognition and forming mental-model shortcuts of the world that are generally very useful within their evolutionary contexts—thus their presence. But as crafty as they are at convincing themselves they have things figured out, brains are only small and limited elements of a larger ecological reality that is indifferent to mammalian neural musings.

In the case of not having a model for how modernity falls apart, the fact that an individual’s brain can’t expand to incorporate unfamiliar contexts, connections, and interdependencies—or entertain unprecedented developments—should in no way be taken as evidence or “proof” that modernity is compatible with ecological realities. One has nothing to do with the other.

Goes Both Ways?

I get that the tendency for some is to fling this right back at me. Maybe I lack the imagination to appreciate the ways in which unlimited human brain power can solve the expanding set of problems and keep modernity going/improving essentially indefinitely. This argument has a ring of inconsistency to it: brains are simultaneously acutely limited and infinitely capable. It reminds me of political arguments that paint an opponent as pathetically feeble while also being all-powerful manipulators behind the scenes. The real story is usually one of competition between varying degrees of incompetence, with a bit of luck thrown in.

Breaking the false symmetry in our case is the simple fact that I don’t put much stock in what imaginations concoct within brains—whatever the direction. No amount of imagining stops us from being animals who must breathe, drink, eat, poop, and die. We are biological beings evolved into an ecological reality, and are only here because humans worked for millions of years within a greater ecological context—one that continues to (grudgingly?) support us for the time being. The imaginings of brains, however, are not required to apprehend anything about the degree to which we are tethered to ecological health. No amount of imagining—mine or anyone else’s—will erase biophysical realities, many aspects of which are often obscured from view.

This is part of why my position may be so alien to the modernity-booster brain. It is unthinkable—heretical, even—that one would dismiss mental capabilities across the board. Yet, that’s exactly what I am using my brain to do: to insult itself in a most unconventional way.

So, I don’t need to (and can’t) understand exactly the road modernity will take in its failure, or to waste time fantasizing about how we’ll overcome the mounting challenges. It is enough to appreciate that artificial systems that are not folded into reciprocal ecological relationships will therefore receive no ecological support, will tend to degrade ecological health (dealing in “weird,” harmful materials that life cannot process), therefore leaving the beings who brought it about unsupported and unable to continue existing in that mode. Notably, we lack evidence to the contrary, and assertions that we’ll work things out come off as unhinged and desperate grasps, in this light.

In other words, modernity is fundamentally incompatible with ecology. It is not of ecological origin, does not play by ecological rules, has not been vetted to coexist ecologically for any relevant stretch of time, and is actively dismembering the ecological foundation upon which modernity’s perpetrators are utterly dependent for their own lives. Given this, only compelling (but non-existent) evidence to the contrary should move us from the default view that modernity is a short-term stunt. To believe otherwise is to court annihilation, willfully dismissing numerous warnings.  It’s a Thelma-and-Louise mad dash for the cliff edge.  Maybe we’ll fly: our imaginations say it’s possible.

Lack of evidence therefore does not “go both ways,” in blindly symmetric fashion. It’s not “anyone’s guess” whether daylight returns tomorrow.  Let’s avoid false equivalency.

To the Faithful

Little of this bothers the true believer in modernity. But it is important to remember: any assessment by any human is taking place in a meat-brain that simply isn’t up to the task, and never will be. Techno-optimist musings tend to have a short temporal focus (decades, typically), leave out “irrelevant” ecology altogether, display other biophysical blind spots (inevitable for all of us), and amount to leaps of faith. Solutions look easier the narrower the focus and the greater the degree of ignorance—which will always be present in some substantial measure for any human or group of humans. It is often easy to spot deliberate efforts to narrow the scope so that solutions make sense. But doing so is tantamount to moving to a fantasy world where we can live happily ever after.  Deliberate decontextualization makes things simultaneously tractable and irrelevant.

Coming back to the charge that maybe it is I who lack the requisite imagination, I say: nobody is capable of deep-enough understanding to see the issue with crystal clarity. And that’s the thing: I’m not even trying to, as I believe it’s a fool’s errand. To me, the strongest argument involves the evidence we do and do not possess: we have solid evidence that humans can live in ecological context for millions of years, and zero evidence that modernity is anything but fleeting—backed by no shortage of evidence exposing modernity as a nightmarish, cancerous ecological smash-job, killing the host upon which it utterly depends.

Why doesn’t the ecological angle bother the modernity-adherent? I suspect it’s because such a person has effectively unlimited faith in human ingenuity. It’s Dunning-Kruger-adjacent: if our technology seems like miraculous magic to a person, it’s easier to imagine its power is unlimited, right?  For such folks, the fact that we presently live non-ecologically seems to be sufficient proof that it can be done. “We’ll just do more of the same, ever-better. Innovation will replace ecological function. We will synthesize the things we want and need. Wild biology will be obsolete. Other species have nothing to offer, unless we wish to use some in increasingly-engineered slave-form as a matter of our convenience.” Human Reich stuff! Total rejection of our ecological origins.  It is a lot like throwing a rock into the air, and—based on the fact that it’s still going up—making the bold claim that it will stay aloft as long as we wish, because we can trick our brains into imagining it being so.

I actually want you to do this mental exercise. Imagine throwing a rock up, and having it come to a stop near the apex of its trajectory, thereafter hovering as long as your imagination wishes it to do so. Douglas Adams would say that our imagined rocks hang in the sky “in much the same way that bricks don’t.” See how easy that was? I’ll bet your rock is still up there, gently bobbing around—perhaps making happy gurgling noises, now that it’s been suggested. Okay, so do you think you could go outside and realize that imagined scenario (extra points for gurgling)? Is imagining modernity to be possible as long as we wish—in blatant disregard of biophysical and ecological realities that we don’t and can’t fully grasp—really any different? Are our brain-imaginings reliable arbiters of reality?

Indeed, modernity-optimism strikes me as made-up fantasy—a sloppy extrapolation based on a temporary set of accelerating stunts that have us rapidly plummeting toward the ground, presenting a momentary illusion of flying. But, the faith that we are well-and-truly flying and can continue to do so as long as we wish is virtually unshakable for many among us—as shaky as it is, at its core.

In order to support the fantasy of long-lived modernity, one must be willing to quickly wave off many concerns, without supporting evidence or deep understanding. That’s how faith works: one must evasively short-circuit potentially terminal complications, often because they are unpleasant to consider.

My Diagnosis?

As I said at the beginning, I often ask myself if I am crazy—being so far out of alignment with respect to those around me. Here are my considerations and basis for diagnosis.

  • Given that believers in long-lived modernity appear to take it as matter of faith and optimism—rejecting the alternative based largely on its perceived undesirability—is a significant red flag.
  • Given that boosters favor the happy, less challenging story while I accept an outcome I don’t find personally appealing (as a product of modernity myself) speaks to the asymmetry: I’m not the one arguing for what I (or at least the pre-awareness version of myself) want to be true. It’s socially difficult and scary to confront the prospect of collapse. I was happier before, but the universe does not unfold according to my emotional state.
  • Given the lack of acknowledgment that the ecological nosedive (sixth mass extinction) is well underway, is deadly serious, is our primary existential concern, and is happening because of modernity’s activities and scale (independent of power source) seems like an important foundational oversight.
  • Given that others decide that I’m wrong without careful assessment of material requirements and consequences for many millennia (impossible to get right, in any case) makes their uncharted, wishful position easier for me to discount.
  • Given the lack of evidence that modernity can run the marathon, it would seem foolish to assume so based on a fleeting and disastrous sprint.
  • Given the biophysical limitations of the human brain, responding to “modernity can’t last” with “I don’t see why not” is not compelling: of course it’s hard to see why not, which is a huge part of the problem. Appealing to the symmetric flip side—that “I don’t see how modernity could last” is similarly unsupportable—is turning this serious topic into a decontextualized game of logic that sets aside mountains of relevant evidence. This is no game: context matters.
  • Relatedly, given that the assumption of modernity’s permanence happens in individual meat-brains that are in no way equipped or qualified to make confident claims is very telling, to me.

To avoid misinterpretation, I also have a severely limited meat-brain like every other human. Part of the journey—perhaps the hardest part for members of our culture—is accepting this fact and dropping the pretense that we’ve got this thing under control, or that we ever can. Mental mastery is an illusion: a flattering story we tell ourselves. But that doesn’t render us completely incapacitated or prevent us from dimly appreciating the asymmetry and sensing modernity’s fundamental ecological incompatibility—even if not in full technicolor detail.

Anyhow, I think I’ll dismiss for now the notion that I’m the one who’s crazy…until tomorrow when I ask myself the question again. Are the modernity-boosters ever asking the same question of themselves, or are they heretical enough to dismiss humanity’s cognitive capabilities? I would guess it’s far less common—being more comfortably supported by prevailing cultural attitudes and market forces—which are, of course, other significant dimensions to the problem.

Tom Murphy

Tom Murphy is professor emeritus of Physics and Astronomy & Astrophysics at the University of California, San Diego, where he spent two decades studying astrophysics and leading a lunar laser-ranging experiment that tested General Relativity with one-millimeter range precision. Following his instincts to educate, Murphy is eager to get people thinking about the quantitatively convincing case that our pursuit of an ever-bigger scale of life faces gigantic challenges and carries significant risks, which he explores in his Do the Math blog and related writing.

Note from Tom: To learn more about my personal perspective and whether you should dismiss some of my views as alarmist, read my Chicken Little page.


Tags: modernity

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Tom Murphy
Tom Murphy
1 year ago

Just a reflection about the comments thus far. The post has 30 instances of "ecol*" while the comments only have two–and those are in my comment! Does this reaffirm my sense of ecological ignorance? The foundations are absent from the discussion. When responses center on social structures, programs, technology, and what we want or don'twant (!!), the implicit message is that we make the world, and not that we are here only because of an ecological context, which we are busy jeopardizing.

To Bart's skepticism of grand plans (though presumably in response to others), I would point out that the path I think is most likely is the complete absence/failure of any grand plans–aside from whatever the truly grand community of life has in store. Nature will provide the implementation, as it always has. That we are the bosses is a temporary illusion, to my eye.

Bart_at_EB
Bart_at_EB
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Murphy

Thanks for the comment, Tom.
I agree that the main impediment to grand plans is our arrogance in believing we can control nature. For a couple of centuries, our pride seemed justified but nature is now teaching us otherwise.
Doomerism, on the other hand. believes that because of our inability to be in control, there is nothing we can do.
Both are artifacts of modernity.
An alternative is to understand and adapt, as earlier societies did. We need “Culture Change,” in the phrase of the late Jan Lundberg.
In the meantime there are many individual projects we can work on. Reimagining the role of science, for example. I’m interested in the Degrowth movement, and distancing ourselves from cars, consumerism and conflict.

Tom Murphy
Tom Murphy
1 year ago
Reply to  Bart_at_EB

Appreciated, Bart. I absolutely think there are things we can do, which is part of what lights a fire under me. I think we can recognize hubris, bend our actions toward ecologically integrated and supportable behaviors, and place extreme (ultimate?) value on the health of the entire community of life,

Doomerism might be said to come in two flavors: A) humanity is doomed; B) modernity is doomed. Conflating modernity and humanity precludes seeing these two types. The first leads to "nothing we can do" and that's not where I am at all. The second acknowledges what to me is obvious. In this case, indeed there is "nothing we can do" to save modernity, but why on Earth should that even be the goal? My extreme, almost unhinged optimism (how's that for type B doomer?) is that we can shake of modernity and learn new ways (and re-learn old ways) to live ecologically, which will be a fragmented, place-specific set of responses rather than a top-down master plan. I therefore see an overwhelming amount that we can do (but not in technological, economic, political dead-ends), and I'm ready to engage–but not all by myself; thus my urge to communicate and motivate.

Joe Clarkson
Joe Clarkson
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Murphy

It's the details of the "shake off modernity" part that gets type B doomers argumentative. There are lots of things that we can do to help a small fraction of the existing human population to live without modernity and in harmony with non-human life. But in the end we don't do them because they only make sense in the context of a big human die-off.

Most of humanity is doomed without modernity, so talking about things "we" can do is talking about an extreme form of cultural triage, concentrating on behaviors that are sustainable and ecologically sound (same thing) and letting the vast majority of people living as moderns and proto-moderns die.

This is why doomerism, even of the B type, gets so much pushback. Nobody wants to see a lot of people die prematurely and watch a few favored people get set up to live, even if that life is close to "lithic".

Hence also the temptation to see the population part of the predicament resolve itself without premature death because of a declining total fertility rate (TFR), as if we had enough time for the human population to decline gradually over centuries. Relying on a declining TFR is doing nothing.

Every aspect of our predicament would have been so much easier to mitigate if we had started "doing something" fifty or more years ago. We were warned then what would happen if nothing was done to change course and, of course, nothing was done. I'm a type B doomer who has seen doom coming for all this time and have "done something" to prepare for the end of modernity. But I also know that I have a privileged situation that is not available to most people. I'm not wracked with guilt, but I don't hold out any hope that my example can be followed by many others.

I just hope that we don't use nuclear weapons to end humanity entirely, but it's looking dicey. Type A doomerism may end up being the most rational after all.

Tom Murphy
Tom Murphy
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe Clarkson

Thanks for this contribution. So much is wrapped up in timescales, which are highly uncertain and thus leave people to fill in the blank on their own, the result of which ranges from sudden apocalypse to a gradual grind downward. I can't predict which is likely, but have learned not to underestimate the market system's self-interest in keeping itself going at all costs. So, TFR decline, reducing population to 4 B by 2100 without mass famine might be in the cards, and in some sense the best off ramp. Of course, non-linear reactions like resource wars and hoarding (food) argue against a painless slow grind. In any case, I think century-scale (gradual, generational) decline is more likely than collapse within a decade. But nobody really knows.

Will ecological collapse be averted if we take a century to unload modernity? What's that word? Resilience? Places like Chernobyl indicate that rapid spring-back is possible, when the pressures are removed. But that's my Type B optimism coming out again.

jim heameach
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Murphy

Tom Said
"to live ecologically, which will be a fragmented, place-specific set of responses rather than a top-down master plan"

That sounds like a much better match for human brains.
With our evolutionarily distorted senses and our network of cognitive short cuts. And play into our strong suit of story telling.

Bart_at_EB
Bart_at_EB
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Murphy

Agree.
I’m focused on what part of modernity is worth continuing and what should be discarded.
Many aspects of scientific thinking would be unfortunate to lose.

Tom Murphy
Tom Murphy
1 year ago
Reply to  Bart_at_EB

In an important sense, it is not our free decision to make (as gods) as we can't (reliably) decide what long-term sustainability will tolerate. What we can do is adopt a "do no harm" approach and discard elements that do not obviously integrate into reciprocal ecological relationship (most of the practices of modernity).

Has scientific thinking been a net benefit or a net harm to the community of life? Let's start with vivisection. But I see what you're saying, and I also value careful observation and clear thinking (admitting limitations). If we applied such tools to dismantling the ills, working back into ecological living, and acknowledging that on most topics we will not gain mental mastery (humility), then I could see that form of "scientific thinking" playing a positive role..

mat redsell
1 year ago

This certainly outlines where I am at too except that I am doing what I feel is the best for me which is . Farming organically with horses. It is not profitable but gives a great deal of satisfaction that at least I and my customers eat the best food possible. I know it will do no good in the long run.
And thanks for a pension that keep[s the farm going.
mat

Bart_at_EB
Bart_at_EB
1 year ago

After spending time around science boosters ,(e g. Cixin Liu of "The Three Body Problem), I think I understand Tom's defensive attitude. It is frustrating.
I agree of course that present-day modernity does not have a bright future. What I am unclear about is what comes next. I am dubious about visions of collapse. What does that even mean?
So much depends on how we handle the changes that are coming. Do we stay in denial? Can we start projects that improve our prospects?

Tom Murphy
Tom Murphy
1 year ago
Reply to  Bart_at_EB

Good questions. A comment on the Do the Math forum indicated some confusion (due to my lack of clarity) about whether I'm saying the Stone Age returns before the end of this century. In the movie version, probably. In real life, I think the process likely has an unambiguous start this century, but could take centuries or millennia to resemble the Stone Age, if that is indeed the future.

In any case, I think the collapse is a many-generation event, which means in part that each generation learns a different world/reality, and responds more appropriately to that reality. What does it mean for us alive today? We can give the process the best possible chance of succeeding by helping people release their grip on modernity: not the thing we should be trying to preserve. Instead, we can learn more about ecological reciprocity: how to live on this planet in a way that is integrated into and supported by the ecological community of life.

So: what comes next is a an enormous transition away from modernity, which we can facilitate by preparing others psychologically (confronting denial) and identifying replacement practices for new ways of living.

Joe Clarkson
Joe Clarkson
1 year ago
Reply to  Tom Murphy

We can give the process the best possible chance of succeeding by helping people release their grip on modernity

Yes, and it's not too hard to identify what "replacement practices" we can promote to allow some fraction of our exisisting population to escape modernity. We have plenty of examples from the past. How about starting by getting as many people as possible as close as possible to "lithic" lifestyles. If that seems too extreme for a first step, an interim practice of subsistence horticulture might be an appropriate level of de-modernization.

Another approach could be to assume that people will be able to figure out a multitude of post-collapse ways of staying alive all by themselves when the time comes. Instead of actively helping people make the transition, modern societies could start by devoting maximum effort to cleaning up our modern mess: sequester nuclear waste, nuclear weapons and dangerous chemicals. Clean up abandoned oil wells and other sources of persistent toxicity. Restore as much fertility to soil as possible and replant deforested areas. This would make it a lot easier for all species, including humans, to live once modernity is gone.

But I suspect that neither an active transition nor a "clean up our mess" will ever happen. Time is short and resources are limited. The time and resources we have will probably just be devoted to keeping modernity going as long as possible and increasing the number of people who get to live as moderns. Modernity will then fall apart in chaotic disintegration or nuclear destruction.

pokiwi
pokiwi
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe Clarkson

Agree. The biggest System subsumes all others, until it hits or overshoots hard Limits (more or less Donella Meadows). So BAU – which is the pursuit of economic growth – will continue until it collapses.

Tom mentions the standard 'stone age' comment; it's called 'shooting the messenger'; 'they are advocating going back to the stone age, therefore they're silly, therefore I don't have to listen to them…'

There is another echelon I call GND – Green New Dealers – who often are folk who spent their lives in Conservation. They have to have been working on the assumption that if we just do this (fix climate, drive an EV, recycle, save the whales/dolphins/bees/Amazon rainforest) we can keep on keeping on. I include, from his many comments, Bart, here, in that description.

The latter are becoming my biggest annoyance, these days. The trick is to work backwards from what a sustainable level of overall consumption is (there will be one) and a sustainable population (worked out by dividing sustainable consumption by desired per-head consumption). Then we can talk about triage (Ford pickups into old-school-windmills, perhaps?) and decay/entropy, and timeframes.

But those eco-optimists have shut the door – transition won't happen. So collapse will.

Andrew Randrianasulu
Andrew Randrianasulu
1 year ago
Reply to  pokiwi

… my biggest problem that I think it exactly will NOT be "stone age" anymore. More likely some kind of uneven (forced by depletion?) low tech boom-bust cycle, where a lot of casual violence will be thrown around as justified. Welxome to new normal, you can't escape it even if you want, and small-scale mentality will prevent you foreven thinking about changing it ….

I dunno if one can live by tradition without royally fracking up in essentially changing system. I do not want back to (disfunctional) village, with broken patriarchal shit and nobrainers all around. So, may be I'll die earlier than this future will be unavoidable and very present result of ppl having no spine. But for some reason forcing everyone to LARP sustainable farmers (with landlords, lol) does not strike me as good idea to slip into ….. Why someone living thousand years old into future must be crippled by our lack of everything when it comes to building honest, supportive society? History is a trap, and we still trappend in it. Is there way sideways? Who knows …. guess it really hard to ring alarm bell when many such bells are rung simply as attention getters. And also when everyday's life in at least Global North still does not look like anywhere near catastrophic.

I am fairly sure Tom developed good argument why current socioeconomical system just can't fly forward. But then …. it feels from my bed that he just stuck in this conclusion. No deeper exploration (solar termal energy, biological technologies), no wider exploration (marxism, anarchism – States hardly will just fade out w/o hell of fight, and while thinking in millenia timescales prob. feels better than imagining Grand Breaking that very well may be ahead of us … we will not live 1000 years, we will live 30-50-70 years directly into near future). Afraid to give false hope? Ah, false hopes are my enemy.

But without societal technology about co-existing, and co-working while preventing big bad authority figure(s) (or even idea? like our old twisted friend Christianity) from capturing and enslaving you … even nominally sustainable lifestyle/*culture (?) will not stay so for long (war leaders and other shit).

Bart_at_EB
Bart_at_EB
1 year ago
Reply to  pokiwi

You’ve got my category right!
But I don’t think there is one answer that will “solve” the problems.
Instead it’s many different aspects of our culture that need to change – and inevitably will change – as the problems become more severe. What we can do now is start working on those changes now.

I’m skeptical of grand plans since there are huge uncertainties. And anyway, who would implement them?

Red Hornet
Red Hornet
1 year ago
Reply to  Joe Clarkson

Joe has distilled the essence of our extinction dilemma.
The apex human predators operating the financial system are the most tenacious when clinging to bad faith in technological modernity. And I see why. Imagine having cheated and lucked into a trillion dollars and then being told "Your money's no good here." I can see why they need the nuclear arms race and proxy wars, out of scale boondoggles, AI and control of mass media to defend their lost cause.
Such an obstacle will never allow the math to be done nor the results to be shared. Instead of cleaning up, increasing amounts of the worst toxins are proposed to be produced. Instead of giving farmers/gardeners/crafts persons space and and chance, small scale productivity is being snuffed out. Instead of a practical education we are offered lies and delusions.
The tiny minority in authority won't be able to live subterranean like Morlocks or go to Mars. The present trajectory of events extinquishes all human life. Any discussion group being honest shares that assumption, and yet we lack the freedom to explore even mild diversity. That is the puzzlement.
*I know I sound simple-minded, but that is exactly my intent. Why don't we rebel?

Toxic Plants Blog
1 year ago

Whenever I have tried to raise the subject of unsustainability / possible collapse with my wife, her immediate response is always "Humans are very ingenious and someone is sure to think of something" (or similar). So I've stopped even trying to discuss it, because she is not going to change her mind, I am not going to change mine, and it's only going to cause friction.

But I think I am the one who is more grounded in reality. I have experimented with a PV panel and determined for myself what it can and can't do (charge an electric lawnmower or a laptop – yes. Run an entire civilisation – no). I grow food organically on my allotment and determined for myself what an allotment can and can't do (grow a small amount of food for a large input of manual labour – yes. Feed 8-10 billion people – no). But my wife doesn't do either of these things for herself, so it's very difficult to re-orient her dreams towards reality.

gerald
gerald
1 year ago

The premise underlying your article is that modernity is somehow meant for the emancipation and lives of the masses. That premise is a rather temporary luxury, as receding resources will trigger humans to do what humans have always done throughout history: to subjugate and eliminate other humans in their quest for dominance of those scarce resources. As usual, they'll do whatever needs doing and adapt their ethics and narratives to fit the job at hand. Another constant is the evolution of the tools they use to do it. Modernity will keep on evolving, simply not for all. Rather for fewer and fewer.

Jan Andrew Bloxham
Jan Andrew Bloxham
1 year ago

You are not crazy, Tom. You are just atypical. Empirical evidence shows that it takes an unusual person to even begin to comprehend our predicament. Paul Chefurka estimated such people to be 1-in-10000 in 2012 . I peg it a bit better than that by now, and certainly, climate anxiety and grief have risen as evidence mounts, but full agreement that modernity cannot continue still feels impossible to find anywhere but among a few rare individuals online.

Your self-reflection of whether you are the crazy one is natural for a scientifically minded, rational and humble individual. I believe being intellectually honest and humble is necessary to allow full engagement with this topic (among many other things, such as a penchant for abstract thought, a lot of common sense and the ability — even desire — to think critically).

I want to thank you, Tom. Your work was one of the key factors in cluing me into this. I finally became aware of our predicament a year ago at the embarrassingly late age of 47. I can't say I've enjoyed it, as it plunged me into a severe depression. But as an INTJ truth-seeker, I at least find a certain satisfaction in respecting reality. I, btw started blogging about it and linked to your work a couple of times.

Keep up the great work. You are one of the eminently few people able to push in the right direction.

RobertC
RobertC
1 year ago

RE: "I can't say I've enjoyed it, as it plunged me into a severe depression. But as an INTJ truth-seeker, I at least find a certain satisfaction in respecting reality." Comforting in a way to hear from another depressed INTJ! Tom is right on the mark from what I can see.

PattiMichelle Sheaffer
PattiMichelle Sheaffer
1 year ago

As a chemical physicist, yes; all I see are about 6 billion human deaths (Meadows). Somewhat less certain is the timespan over which this will occur. (Models are increasingly in question as government(s) ramp up the fight to exist and maintain order.) But at least one model is right on schedule – a freezing Arctic (i.e., solid ice) drove the Holocene weather which in turn drives the food supply, and it has essentially melted. Hence the death count. Food shortage already exists in the US, masked by our (failing) food system and military reach. It would seem a decent prediction that all but the centimillionaires, high-elite, and above will be suffering** by the end of this decade. (My main concern is how to maintain the rule-of-law for myself and my children.)

Basically, the summer growing season's climate will fail first, and most importantly.

Discussion of subjects which do not consider the accelerating population crash could seem moot? With regard to the Bendell/Read calls for "Lifeboats" (for humans) – maybe the major power(s) are actually trying to be these as they ramp-up global food (and embodied water) seizure from the rest of the planet? China's history has seen repeated large-scale dieoffs. The US Intelligence Community, at least, should be well aware of these facts.
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http://yavapaiweathertracks.org/PIOMAS_ModelE_08-2021.png
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http://yavapaiweathertracks.org/2030_Summers_Prediction_JUL2023.png
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http://yavapaiweathertracks.org/ArcticeIce90percent2.png

So, any discussion of a "future" for what we now call civilization automatically must consider how to bury 6-7 billion humans and how to obtain resources that vanish under such human shortages (i.e., without an adequate body of skills). Tainter and Tainter/Patzek call this the depopulation of "critical occupations."

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**Of course, "suffering" is not "dead" or "given up." It's just a statement of under what conditions order will have to be maintained or, at least, the attempt made to maintain order. Diamond noted that food shortages have always promoted wars (including civil war) in historic times, and Keeley extends this to anthropological timescales. This probably terrifies the Intelligence Community. (Or at least it should.) There is good evidence that so-called Social Entrepreneurs have always played a key role in destabilizing order during times of extreme shortage, and we also see the number of these multiplying – hence the concern for "rule of law."

Jack Alpert
1 year ago

Thank you Tom, Joe, Bart, et al. for these well thought out views. I would like to expand on them.

1. How many people could live on earth at
what level of consumption
under what rules of operation
without any detriment to the ecology.
see A non-injury producing civilization. 55 minutes
https://youtu.be/dYR5Ix-1wMs
2. How might we decline to that global population in 80 to 100 years with most dying of old age.
Script. : Maybe humankind is not toast – 300 words
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s9/sh/c20e1cb7-fb68-179a-ccd1-22d7ac6dc1f5/EnIVew1w2uriku4gemaJI6RolE7vDCV46phJBD7as5qa7adb1qnx6baeaw